News Should Mexicans Focus on Improving Mexico Instead of Immigrating Illegally?

[SOS2008]

There are those (mostly Mexican nationals) who say it is silly to build a wall on our border because people would still cross over illegally. So by that logic we shouldn't even try to secure our borders, right? Come on, we may not completely stop all illegal entry, but we should at least try to limit it as much as possible. (Have you noticed that talk of securing the border makes Mexican nationals very nervous?)

There are those who say it is too difficult to become a citizen legally. Is it any more difficult than obtaining citizenship in other countries? I know several people who have obtained citizenship legally, so apparently it is possible. There are those who say it is unfair that Mexicans aren't even allowed to apply for citizenship due to quotas. Should Mexicans be given favored status over people who wish to immigrate from other countries? Why, and how so?

There are those who say illegals work hard and only want to feed their families, so they are not criminals. Yes, the American dream is all about working hard to get ahead, but it's not about cutting in line via illegal entry, or cheating with fake ID -- and yes, those who break laws are criminals.

There are those who say we must grant amnesty to illegals already in the U.S. because it would be outrageous to deport them all. First of all, there are probably about 20 million illegals, not 11 million. And no one is advocating deporting all of them. I hate this "either or," black and white crap. However, there cannot be blanket amnesty, which means these people do need to be screened for criminal records, contagious disease, employment status/capability, including illiteracy and/or ability to speak English. Only those who do not meet these basic requirements should be automatically deported. Will it cost some money? Yes, and worth every penny.

The rest need to be issued "white cards" while they wait in line for citizenship. In the meantime, if they entered illegally, they should pay a fine, and if they used fake ID, they should do public/military service, and if they owe taxes, they need to pay up. Because they and other hopefuls need to know they can't break laws without penalty.

Have you noticed that those who exaggerate everything are those with a pro-Mexican agenda, and when they get upset their Mexican nationalism really shows through? A couple of guests on CNN tonight were getting very upset, for example one man was upset about the Mexican flag being burned here in the U.S. by American citizens. Like people don't burn the American flag all over the world every day of the week. And for Christ sake, the "organizers" of the protests realized they needed to pass out more American flags today because they had an "image" problem. Like that would compensate for the Mexican flag flown above the American flag, or distract from the singing in Spanish. Riiiight.

In the meantime, I went to the "Border Guardians" site to see if there were any demonstrations I could attend, but the site is being overwhelmed with so many hits they had only an article posted. What does that tell you?

 

[Gokul43201]

...Will it cost some money? Yes, and worth every penny.

Some money ? Has anyone got a rough estimate ?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The cost of enforcement would have to be compared to the demand on health and social programs, in addition to the law enforcement etc needed to cope with the illegals, as things are now.

What keeps getting me is their attitude. I have listened to one advocate after another and I keep hearing the same thing: They are doing this by force. They not only threaten with their vote, which is fine, but they also demand that these people have a right to come here. Then they claim that they are going to keep coming here and there nothing nothing that we can do about it.

Keep it up and you will see exactly what happens when people have finally had enough.

The first thing that I would do is to strongly enforce the laws against hiring illegals. I think a $30K - $50K fine for each undocumented worker is about the right number. This is how to stop the problem. And the fines would pay for enforcement. If the company doesn't have the money, confiscate its holdings and sell them at auction.

 

[SOS2008]

Some money ? Has anyone got a rough estimate ?

Beginning with securing the border, estimates are $2.2 billion for a 700-mile wall. - http://www.forbes.com/home/forbes/2006/0410/094.html

Though a wall pisses off your neighbor (e.g., Vicente Fox wants money to continue to flow back to Mexico), my understanding is the West Bank fence in Israel has been very effective. And the cost is chicken feed compared to the trillions our government blows through each year, and even just in comparison to the invasion/occupation of Iraq.

I could not find estimates for what it would take to begin processing illegals already in the country (maybe I will have time to look later). However, here are estimates of what it will cost if we don't:

This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

If we need more labor in this country, let's increase immigration from all parts of the world, and according to predetermined need and qualifications for that need. And if we don't begin to address the problems to our south in earnest, and stop putting a Band-Aid on a gaping wound at the American people's expense, we will find ourselves wondering what happened to spreading democracy on our own continent.

Bush is the WORST president we've ever had. What ever an inept idiot advocates, we should do the opposite.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Speaking of attitude...

Violence Mars Immigration Demonstration

...The victim, identified as Robert Gorman, of Portland, was one of about three people carrying signs arguing that illegals have no rights. He was treated and released from the Maine Medical Center emergency room.

http://www.wmtw.com/news/8600573/detail.html

Gorman is reportedly the son of legal Mexican immigrants. The demonstrations have been peaceful, but we haven't seen any counter protests... until now.

Have you seen the picture of the Mexican flag flying over the upsidedown US flag, or the US flags being flown upsidedown in the marches?

 

[McGyver]

Why don't Americans Express much Opposition?

Whether the topic is illegal immigration and the most unusual demonstations in cities across the U.S., or the war in Iraq and against terror, or the ridiculous costs (and profits) of oil and gas, or pricing of health care products and services - most Americans seem, in large part, to be content to let things go on as they are - WHY IS THIS?

These demonstrations en masse in support of illegal immigration is the most ridiculous abuse of U.S. freedom of speech - when easily half of those demonstrating aren't even citizens. Yet, even more ridiculous, is the lackluster response by ordinary law-abiding Americans, most of whom are offended and non-supportive of the demonstrations. I mean, what ever happened to "getting in line?" These folks have cut in and jumped into the front of the line. I can't imagine many Americans would allow this to occur in their ordinary activities - without objection.

So where's the objection? I guess I can only conclude that we're all too busy with our own individual challenges, and feel detached from such national and global issues. Or, good Americans have been made to look like crying liberals if they express any strong personal objection. Perhaps it is only after things directly affect us, until we express any substantive opposition.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Thousands of toilet brushes are being mailed to L.A. City Hall after Mayor Villaraigosa's now famous "we clean your toilets" speech at a recent immigration rally.
http://www.johnandkenshow.com/

 

[SOS2008]

It isn't cool to be an activist and protest in the streets. Also, it is hard to take time off from demanding jobs. And let's face it, white men cannot demonstrate against an issue connected to minorities--bad, very bad. But ultimately, there are no groups to organize anti-amnesty demonstrations. Big business, the Catholic Church, etc. are backing these so-called "immigration reform" marches, and some of the people were just hanging out in the yard, or gave up a day on the corner.

Also, who has the most at stake? These people have opened bank accounts, bought homes, started businesses, have their children in school, etc. They have A LOT at stake. Never mind that they did it all illegally or at legal citizen's expense, they are going to fight to keep it.

As with the DP Port deal, flood your representatives with calls, letters, emails, etc. They know who holds the vote in 2006 and 2008. And encourage others to do the same. I constructed a letter that I sent to my representatives, and than emailed it to about 20 people along with email addresses for Arizona congressmen.

 

[Entropy]

It isn't cool to be an activist and protest in the streets. Also, it is hard to take time off from demanding jobs.

My thoughts exactly. If you are protesting, you have too much time on your hands.

 

[edward]

The corrupt Mexican government, who demands rights and legalization of it's immigrants in the USA, treats Central American immigrants in it's own country quite differently.

TULTITLAN, Mexico -- Considered felons by the government, these immigrants fear detention, rape and robbery. Sometimes they are deported; more often police officers simply take their money.

While immigrants in the United States have held huge demonstrations in recent weeks, the hundreds of thousands of illegal Central Americans in Mexico suffer mostly in silence.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-mex19.html

 

[BobG]

How do people feel about the Mexican translation of the National Anthem? Nuestro Himno

For that matter, how many actually know the words (American version) to the National Anthem? About 61% don't know the words to the first verse - it would be hard to find someone who knew the words to all four stanzas (Good thing, too, since the fourth stanza includes the words, "In God is our trust".)

In fact, how many people know the original words to that melody? The melody is from a song called "To Anacreon in Heaven" written in the 1760's. Francis Scott Key then used the melody for his poem, "In Defense of Fort McHenry", which was later renamed to "The Star Spangled Banner".

 

[selfAdjoint]

Did Francis Scott Key actually set his poem to "Anacreon in Heaven" or did somebody else do that later? I realize this is OT and maybe we should take this issue to the History subforum.

 

[SOS2008]

How do people feel about the Mexican translation of the National Anthem?

I doubt anyone is against patriotism in itself, but if someone is truly proud to be American, why not learn the anthem in English? To encourage assimilation and advancement, English should be our national language and all immigrants should be encouraged to learn it. Nuestro Himno, Notre Hymne, Unsere Hymne, etc.--it doesn't matter what foreign language--this kind of propaganda only undermines this premise and harms the people who ignorantly embrace it.

 

[selfAdjoint]

My only recent experience with Mexican immigrants is in Northern states, Illinois and Wisconsin. There are lots of them, so it seems there are many immigrants who aren't content to remain in the stronghold of la Raza. And the ones I have met were all hard working and ambitious to succeed. Working at yard care or hot kitchens and behaving most admirably, and they all learned at least a little English. In fact ESL is a boom industry in this part of the world. Every bit as worthy of respect as prior immigrants.

So I tend to view the "immigrant problem" as a problem not with Mexicans but a problem with Texas, California, etc.

 

[SOS2008]

My only recent experience with Mexican immigrants is in Northern states, Illinois and Wisconsin. There are lots of them, so it seems there are many immigrants who aren't content to remain in the stronghold of la Raza. And the ones I have met were all hard working and ambitious to succeed. Working at yard care or hot kitchens and behaving most admirably, and they all learned at least a little English. In fact ESL is a boom industry in this part of the world. Every bit as worthy of respect as prior immigrants.

So I tend to view the "immigrant problem" as a problem not with Mexicans but a problem with Texas, California, etc.

The Southwest today, the north tomorrow. I too would prefer to view illegal entry as a problem not just associated with Mexicans. But the fact is the percentages are highly skewed to Mexicans, and the attitudes we are beginning to see are a result of strength in numbers. Also, unfortunately it is encouraged by Vicente Fox, who refers to these people as his heroes. What a great neighbor he makes, huh?

I agree these people are very hard working, and I believe there are some jobs (e.g., picking produce, cleaning fish in a meat packing facility, etc.) that Americans may not be willing to do. But I think it is more related to pay. I just watched a program about the flood of Americans who went to work on the Alaskan pipeline (not so long ago). It was hard work, long hours, in difficult and dangerous conditions. Why did so many go? Because of the pay.

I'm sure I'm more sensitive because I live in a border state, but I also know several people (my sister-in-law from England, my childhood friend who's husband is from the Dominican, another friend from Iran, etc.) who all immigrated legally. And it's not just citizenship being made available to people from all around the world, but also guest worker visas. There are people from England I know who would love to come to America to work temporarily. And don't you think many people from Asia, India, the Middle East, etc. would be willing to pick produce or clean fish? I know they would.

So even if Americans really aren't willing to do these jobs, there are many people who will. There has to be quotas, and laws must be enforced to make immigration fair.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

LOS ANGELES IS OURS? WHAT'S THAT ALL ABOUT?

I have a copy of a page from a Mexican magazine called "Expansion." It's the editorial page. The editorial is printed in English and Spanish. I thought you might get a kick out of the title to the editorial. "A proposito de "Con todo respeto, Los Angeles es nuestro." Translation? "With all due respect, Los Angeles is ours."

http://boortz.com/nuze/200603/03312006.html

This is an invasion, not immigration.

As for the "No Gringo" boycott, that will help to show officials where illegals can be found.

 

[SOS2008]

http://boortz.com/nuze/200603/03312006.html

This is an invasion, not immigration.

As for the "No Gringo" boycott, that will help to show officials where illegals can be found.

The Mexican land owners were allowed to keep their land and were given automatic citizenship. If these people are upset that the Mexican flag isn't being flown in California as a part of Mexico, apparently it hasn't dawned on them that Los Angeles would be like Tijuana if it was. And they would still be crossing the border illegally to get a job in other states of the U.S.

In regard to these divisive attitudes, as with the protests, such displays are only back firing. They are waking up the sleeping giant, and it isn't the one they were hoping for.

EDIT: This just in -- Outside of Senator McCain's office, between 200 and 300 people had come bearing heads of lettuces and resumes. Previously Sen. McCain indicated that he was sure that no one would accept his $50 per hour job offer to pick lettuce. Many took up his offer when he made that declaration. The parking lot outside his office was filled with people carrying heads of lettuce to let Sen. McCain know they wanted the job.

 

[Astronuc]

I don't think its a matter of flying the Mexican flag in California, as much as its a matter of being treated with basic respect and human dignity, and its a matter of justice and fair wages.

EDIT: This just in -- Outside of Senator McCain's office, between 200 and 300 people had come bearing heads of lettuces and resumes. Previously Sen. McCain indicated that he was sure that no one would accept his $50 per hour job offer to pick lettuce. Many took up his offer when he made that declaration. The parking lot outside his office was filled with people carrying heads of lettuce to let Sen. McCain know they wanted the job.

And he wants to be president!? He'll have to do better than that.

 

[SOS2008]

I don't think its a matter of flying the Mexican flag in California, as much as its a matter of being treated with basic respect and human dignity, and its a matter of justice and fair wages.

All workers including American workers would like to be treated with respect and human dignity and to earn fair wages. Justice is obeying laws, and if you want respect, then show respect.

 

[Astronuc]

Justice is obeying laws, and if you want respect, then show respect.

I agree, but for the illegals, its a matter of survival. For people who hire them, its a matter of exploitation, and for the most part, the US government has turned a blind eye to the matter - they really have not had a serious effort in dealing with the illegals, until 9/11.

And speaking of obeying laws - someone needs to remind the Bush administration.

 

[edward]

How do people feel about the Mexican translation of the National Anthem? Nuestro Himno

For that matter, how many actually know the words (American version) to the National Anthem? About 61% don't know the words to the first verse

Hmm that first verse starts out: "Jose can you see" Bill Dana circa 1960. Sorry I just couldn't resist.

Seriously, here in Tucson we are overwhelmend with illegals needing medical care and social services. One of our two trauma centers closed its doors because the government was not reimbursing them for treating illegals.

This means if the one remaining trauma center is at capacity Tucsonans must be flown to Phoenix for trauma care. The one center is at capacity about once a week, usually because a vehicle overloaded with illegals has crashed.

This week 24 illegals in a stolen pickup truck rolled over in a high speed accident. Four were killed nine required treatment at the trauma center, leaving the center over capacity for four hours. The vehicle had been spotted by the Border Patrol, but was not being chased by any agency. The idiots just drive that way. It was just an average week.

 

[SOS2008]

I agree, but for the illegals, its a matter of survival. For people who hire them, its a matter of exploitation, and for the most part, the US government has turned a blind eye to the matter - they really have not had a serious effort in dealing with the illegals, until 9/11.

How many Americans fight for survival each day? Don't they deserve to come first? And then how many people fight for survival in other countries of the world? Don't they get a shot at coming to the U.S.? I'm sorry, but on this topic the "liberal" arguments don't have a leg to stand on.

I agree there hasn't been a terrorist act committed by someone crossing the southern border...yet. However, a secure border is about more than terrorism. It is about a range of things, such as drug trafficking, as well as human trafficking and the crime and other problems that often comes with it.

The illegals are harmed more by coyotes, and their own people here in the U.S. I know a Hispanic loan officer who helps these people buy homes, and he rips them off with outrageous fees. He is a Catholic who supports Bush and so-called values, yet at the same time he wants these illegals to keep coming because he can make money from their fear, but mostly because they can't speak (or read/write) English. And guess what illegals pay the coyotes? Often much more than fees to be processed legally.

They can't get in because there are too many? The answer isn't to unfairly allow more in. The answer is to improve the situation in Mexico. I don't know if anyone has noticed, but Latin America is becoming more hostile (e.g., Venezuela) and anti-American. Want to spread democracy? How about we start next door.

And speaking of obeying laws - someone needs to remind the Bush administration.

Perhaps that's why he doesn't have a problem rewarding law breakers with amnesty.

EDIT: This just in --

"Mexico poised to allow small amounts of drugs
Congress decriminalizes possession of cocaine, heroin, ecstasy, pot" - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12535896/

It's a good thing Mexico is so strict in enforcing other laws, or they might see a flood of American drug addicts entering illegally and never going back home. Someone sent me this, made me laugh:

Dear President Bush:

I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this. I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here. So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.

2. English-speaking government employees for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.

3. All government forms need to be printed in English.

4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.

5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.

6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.

7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.

8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.

9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.

10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak English.

11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th, which will include Rock & Roll instead of Mexican polka music. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.

12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don't enforce any labor laws or tax laws.

13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the economy.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely. However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P.

Thank you so much for your kind help.

 

[edward]

The Mexican government is more to blame here than the Bush administration is admitting. Allowing the illegals to mass at the border and then cross into the USA is Mexico's answer to one of the worst wealth distribution systems in the Americas.

Mexico’s governing class has no incentive to reform so long as poor Mexicans can come here, do menial labor and receive free education, food stamps and health care while sending an estimated $15 billion to poor relatives back home. This is why official Mexican policy is to respect American law, but official Mexican actions routinely abuse our immigration statutes.

No wonder Mexican officials print and distribute a comic book-style tour guide to illegal immigrants headed here. No wonder the Mexican government maintains a Cabinet-level agency — the Institute for Mexicans Abroad — to help immigrants. No wonder Grupo Beta Mexican law enforcement officials steer immigrants to the most open U.S. border crossing

http://www.examiner.com/a-84836~Editorial__Mexico_s_hidden_agenda.html

 

[SOS2008]

The Mexican government is more to blame here than the Bush administration is admitting. Allowing the illegals to mass at the border and then cross into the USA is Mexico's answer to one of the worst wealth distribution systems in the Americas.

Most certainly Mexico's double standard is a major problem. In follow-up to laws of Mexico already posted, and my comments about Mexican nationals appalled by Americans burning the Mexican flag, here is additional information that supports my post above:

The audacity of Mexico’s interference in U.S. immigration policy stands in sharp contrast to Mexico’s own jealous sense of sovereignty. It is difficult to imagine a country touchier about interference in its domestic affairs or less tolerant of immigrants. In 2002, for example, Mexico deported a dozen American college students (all in the country legally) who had joined a protest in Mexico City against a planned airport. Such participation, said Mexico, constituted illegal domestic interference. (It would be interesting to know how many Mexican students—legal and illegal—have participated with impunity in demonstrations in the U.S. against American immigration and educational policies.)
----------
This August, New Mexico governor Bill Richardson declared a state of emergency in four counties bordering Mexico, because of violence and devastation wrought by trafficking in aliens and drugs. City council members from the Mexican city of Ciudad Juárez branded Richardson’s declaration an interference in Mexico’s domestic affairs.
----------
Mexico’s own immigration policies are the exact opposite of what it relentlessly advocates in the United States. Its entry permits favor scientists, technicians, teachers of underrepresented disciplines, and others likely to contribute to “national progress.” Immigrants may only enter through established ports and at designated times. Anyone not presenting the proper documentation and health certificates won’t get in; the transportation company that brought him must pay his return costs. Foreigners who do not “strictly comply” with the entry conditions will face deportation. Steve Royster, who worked in the American consulate in Mexico from 1999 to 2001, presided over several deportations of Americans who had overstayed their visas. “They were given a choice: accept deportation or go to jail,” he says.

Providing full college tuition or all-expenses-paid secondary and primary education for illegal American students in Mexico? Unthinkable. Until recently, U.S.-born children of Mexican parents weren’t even allowed to enroll in Mexican public schools, reserved for Mexican citizens only. The parents would have to bribe officials for Mexican birth certificates for their kids. (The 1998 change in the Mexican constitution to allow dual nationality now makes enrollment by U.S.-born Mexicans possible.) “We’re not friendly with immigrants; that’s a big difference with the speech we have here with American schools,” admits a Mexican diplomat.

What about textbooks to propagate American culture in Mexico? They would provoke an uprising against Yanqui imperialism. When President Ernesto Zedillo tried in the 1990s merely to revise Mexican textbooks to acknowledge contemporary cooperation between the U.S. and Mexico, he found himself denounced as a traitor. The revisions went nowhere.

The Mexican police, traditionally corrupt and brutal towards their own citizenry, are even more corrupt and brutal towards illegal immigrants, mostly from Central America. The article goes on to say:

Mexico’s border police have reportedly engaged in rapes, robberies, and beatings of illegal aliens from Central and South America on their way to the U.S. Yet compared with the extensive immigrant-advocacy network in the U.S., few pressure groups exist in Mexico to protest such treatment. If Americans run afoul of Mexico’s border police, watch out. In 1996, the Mexican police beat and shot in the back a teenage American girl who had led them on a high-speed chase in Tijuana. No one in the U.S. or Mexico raised a fuss, at least publicly.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_4_mexico.html

How anyone can deny this is a foreign-sponsored invasion is beyond me (read the entire article if you're not sure). Do you realize these people demand the right to have a driver's license, and do you realize this is all that is needed to register to vote?

And talking about national anthems, Mexico’s one-way attitude is best illustrated by the Mexican national anthem, Mexicanos al Grito de Guerra, which I understand translates to this:

But if some strange enemy should dare
to profane your ground with his step,
think, oh beloved country,
that heaven has given you a soldier in every son.

Hmm..."to profane your ground with his step"

But I feel both Mexico and Bush are to blame. Bush is responsible for effectively announcing amnesty, and also failing to be tough with Mexico for it's own failures. But also, American businesses are to blame. These companies lobby fiercely in order to continue enjoyment of low wages. And then there are Americans themselves, who like inexpensive maids, gardeners, nannies, etc. (not that I or most Americans can relate).

In regard to the 11 (more like 20) million illegals already in the U.S., many feel the most effective and least costly way to deal with this problem is through attrition by enforcing immigration and hiring laws. If illegals suddenly find themselves unable to work, they will go home on their own. And when they return home they will convey this message to others. So those of you who are considering guest worker programs and/or allowing illegals to simply pay fines because you think it is impossible to process all these people (as I have), consider this solution, which also is preferable to forced deportation.

As for keeping the economy going, if needed, this can be achieved with immigrants from around the world and per proper screening. People ask whether illegals are helping or hurting the economy. I feel the question is irrelevant and wonder why it's even asked. There is no justification for law-breaking, nor exceptions that should be made for a particular nationality of people. We are a compassionate nation, and these people have been banking on it.

 

[Astronuc]

"Mexico poised to allow small amounts of drugs
Congress decriminalizes possession of cocaine, heroin, ecstasy, pot" - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12535896/

Pengwuino posted something about this in GD. The reason that the Mexican government did this is that they are trying to undermine the corruption of the police, who let minor drug offenders go in exchange for bribes.

The solutions to the problem of illegal immigrations are 1) economic development in the countries from which people are trying to 'escape' and 2) ending the endemic/systemic corruption.


The Mexican police (some/many?) are traditionally corrupt and brutal towards anyone who is vulnerable.

How many Americans fight for survival each day?

Too many!

Don't they deserve to come first?

Yes. Everyone deserves a chance.

And then how many people fight for survival in other countries of the world?

Oh, about 3-4 billion.

Don't they get a shot at coming to the U.S.?

Well, if we allow that, then we'd have about 3-4 billion extra people in the US.

I'm sorry, but on this topic the "liberal" arguments don't have a leg to stand on.

I certainly am not arguing for illegal immigration. I think everyone should obey the law and go by the book.

The problem of illegal immigration should have been dealt with a long time ago - and it wasn't - so now its a crisis. So we collectively pay for the sins of the past.

I know several people, some of whom are wealthy, who have employed illegal aliens and made good money as a result. Many companies/businesses and the owners in Texas paid illegal aliens less than minimum wage (and no health care, no insurance, no pension), and they benefitted hugely. The authorities looked the other way.

I think many illegals realize that they collectively have been exploited, and that when convenient many Americans and the American government look the other way. Then look at the behavior of the American government and corporations in Central and South America.

The doctrine was conceived by its authors, especially John Quincy Adams, as a proclamation by the United States of moral opposition to colonialism, but has subsequently been re-interpreted in a wide variety of ways, including by President Theodore Roosevelt as a license for the U.S. to practice its own form of colonialism (known as the Roosevelt Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt_Corollary_to_the_Monroe_Doctrine

The Roosevelt Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine was a substantial alteration (called an "amendment") of the Monroe Doctrine by U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt. In its altered state, the Monroe Doctrine would now consider Latin America as an agency for expanding U.S. commercial interests in the region, along with its original stated purpose of keeping European hegemony from the hemisphere.

And then there are the "Maquiladoras" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquiladoras - which have attracted so many people to the US-Mexican borders. But the problem is that as bad as it might be for illegals in the US, its better than the situation back home!

BTW, I am doing like TSA and playing 's advocate on this matter.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

New Diseases and medical costs associated with illegal immigration

...A report by CIS, using 2004 data, "found that 35 percent of [all] immigrants don't have health insurance, and an estimated 65 percent of illegals don't have it," Mr. Camarota said. In contrast, fewer than 13 percent of U.S. natives and their children lack health insurance, the analysis showed. In 2002, he said, the federal government spent $2.5 billion to provide families of illegal immigrants with Medicaid and another $2.2 billion to provide medical treatment for uninsured illegals. "State and local governments probably spent another $1.6 billion on top of that providing health insurance for illegal aliens," said Mr. Camarota, whose group analyzes Census Bureau data. The health system of Los Angeles County, Calif., has been described as the largest safety net for the uninsured in the nation. "We have 2.5 million uninsured people in Los Angeles County out of a population of 9.6 million," said Dr. Brian Johnston, a trustee of the Los Angeles County Medical Association. California state law requires that counties provide medical care for the uninsured. "But we have the lowest rates of reimbursement for Medicaid of any program in the United States," he said. Dr. Johnston said the situation has been bleak for health providers and patients alike. "In 2002, [emergency rooms] and trauma centers in California provided $520 million worth of medical care for which they received no reimbursement. About $150 million was lost in Los Angeles County alone," he said. Those losses were 18 percent higher than in 2001, and those in 2001 were 16 percent ahead of 2000. "So this puts the entire system at risk," Dr. Johnston said. He noted that Los Angeles County experienced the closings of seven emergency rooms last year and 16 clinics the year before [continued]

http://www.alipac.us/article207.html

IMO, illegal immigration has played a large role in breaking the back of the medical system; esp in the Los Angeles basin.

And what of the coming bird flu threat?

 

[Astronuc]

And what of the coming bird flu threat?

Well, actually, that could be any communicable disease - mumps, measles, tuberculosis, and many others that are very limited in a healthy population which has access to good nutrition and immunizations.

I was reflecting on the exchange between SOS and myself. I certainly maintain that immigration should be done legally, and that people have no right to simply drop in and expect to live and work. I wouldn't allow any stranger to simply come into my house and live.

On the other hand, I remember the illegal aliens who would show up a job sites for companies like Brown & Root (now part of Kellogg, Brown & Root, part of Halliburton). They were cheap labor that helped many Texas companies make huge profits over the last several decades. On the down side, I know of several who were injured (one guy broke both feet in a fall), and they were not covered by insurance. The illegal immigrants were certainly exploited and the US governments (states and Federal) simply ingnored the matter. And now it's a problem?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It has always been a problem. The difference is that the numbers are catching up with us. Also, now that they are here in large numbers, the illegals think they can demand rights.

We've reached a very strange moment in the immigration debate. On Wednesday President Bush condemned a group of good American citizens worried about the breaking of U.S. immigration law. He condemned the organizers of Project Minuteman as "vigilantes" even though they have broken no law and pledge not to do so.

http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20050324-075949-5943r.htm

I think we may be close to a genuine border war. People are fed up with the government failing to do its primary job of defending the borders.

 

[SOS2008]

Reporting once more from ground zero, Arizona (edward is really at ground zero!).

Well, if we allow that, then we'd have about 3-4 billion extra people in the US.

When I say "have a shot" I mean per quotas for all nationalities, and of course per qualifications.

I think many illegals realize that they collectively have been exploited, and that when convenient many Americans and the American government look the other way. Then look at the behavior of the American government and corporations in Central and South America..

I disagree with the premise of exploitation on certain levels. Beginning with business owners and/or citizens who knowingly hire illegals (typically from known street corners or day labor facilities provided by the likes of Home Depot) and who often pay good wages, for example $10/hr., which is well above the minimum wage and not bad for unskilled labor, and often food and drink is provided as well. The business owners are willing to pay this because they still save a lot by not paying benefits, taxes, and other costs if they hired legal workers.

Businesses that collect documents, though they may well suspect the documents are false, do pay lower wages than they otherwise would pay, but everything is relative. One example reported on CNN was that of an illegal working at a restaurant earning 25,000/yr. His son is completing college with a scholarship, and his wife is receiving medical care for cancer with Medicaid assistance. Not that bad, even for someone here legally.

I feel the "living in the shadows" description is an exaggeration for political purposes. Illegals learn that local law enforcement does not have the power to check for citizenship documents. They openly go to day labor centers, which also are flagrantly supported by the likes of Home Depot. They can be approached and asked if they have green cards, and they will not flee. They are at best a little more concerned than I am when I drive with expired plates. If they are deported, it is a temporary inconvenience--they will be back soon--sometimes the next day or within a week.

In regard to stereotypical hardship, such as living several families to a home, they do have electricity, clean water, etc., and most are able to move to better conditions upon earning wages. Many are buying homes, driving nice cars, starting businesses, etc., and sometimes not long after arriving here. But most of all, the next generation is not likely to face any of this. I'd hardly call this exploitation, unless you mean the other way around for legitimate companies who must compete, legal workers who's wages are depressed, or the tax payers who subsidize the process.

The most flagrant behavior of all is companies who solicit illegal labor, and even assist in smuggling them over the border. So I agree the problem is not as much about the people who are seeking a better life as it is these businesses who are at fault, and a government who has looked the other way far too long.

As for companies who hire illegals, it would be easy to discover this via tracking of fake Social Security cards. For example, in the recent crack down on IFCO Systems, a manufacturer of crates and pallets:

More than half of the company's roughly 5,800 employees during 2005 had invalid or mismatched Social Security numbers, the government alleges.

- http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-04-20-immigration_x.htm

Also, it is very obvious which industries to target, and within these industries which companies to target. For example, there is to be another round of protests on Monday, May 1st (tomorrow). Companies that have been busted before, such as Tyson Foods Inc, and other meat packing companies such as Cargill Meat Solutions and Smithfield Foods Inc., along with various construction companies such as James G. Davis Construction Corp. have openly announced they are closing operations on Monday so employees can participate in protests. How much more blatant can it be? It is like mob-controlled labor unions in reverse! We should be hearing about raids on companies like these on a daily basis.

Returning to the topic of more protests scheduled for Monday, here is another example of foreign intervention in U.S. domestic affairs:

In Mexico, 'nothing gringo on May 1'
Activists plan one-day boycott of U.S. businesses
Friday, April 14, 2006

Mexican unions, political and community groups, newspaper columnists and even some Mexican government offices have joined the call in recent days.

"Remember, nothing gringo on May 1," advises one of the many e-mails being circulated among Internet users in Mexico.

"On May 1, people shouldn't buy anything from the interminable list of American businesses in Mexico," reads another. "That means no Dunkin' Donuts, no McDonald's, Burger King, Starbucks, Sears, Krispy Kreme or Wal-Mart."

For some it's a way to express anti-U.S. sentiment, while others see it as part of a cross-border, Mexican-power lobby.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/04/14/mexico.boycott.ap/

Do we see illegal immigrants from other countries singing the national anthem in their language, protesting, boycotting, etc.? Legal American citizens are being encouraged to shop on Monday as a counter to the boycott (though I would exclude Wal-Mart because of it's history of employing illegals). Good Lord, what do we have here--A culture embracing assimilation or civil strife?

One of the organizers behind the upcoming "Day of Protest" was interviewed on the news. He directly stated that the goal is to achieve amnesty. He made no mention of making it easier to become a citizen legally, or guest worker programs, or any other solution, but amnesty. Also their goal is to allow the flow across the border to continue--not just to advocate on behalf of those already here illegally. Don't kid yourselves people--this is what they are really fighting for--more of the same.

With this in mind I am appalled at the companies, the so called human rights groups, religious organizations, etc. that are enabling all this. Certainly tax-funded public schools should not allow students to walk out of class so they can contribute to an anti-American, ethnically divisive movement.

 

[edward]

The meat processing industry is preparing for the "Illegal Monday" by closing plants all over the country.

Tyson, headquartered in Springdale, Ark., will close 12 plants nationwide, the company said in a statement. Spokesman Gary Mickelson cited "factors such as market conditions that permit scheduling changes and the potential shortage of workers."

Swift, based in Greeley, Colo., will shut down four of its five beef processing plants and two of its three pork processing plants, spokesman Sean McHugh said in a statement Friday. The decision was based on factors including previously scheduled maintenance, general market conditions and employees' requests for time off.

And Cargill, based in Wichita, Kan., will close plants in Iowa, Kansas, Illinois, Texas, Nebraska and Colorado.

Pittsburgh, Texas-based Pilgrim's Pride, planned to adjust its work schedules at poultry plants in Arkansas, while Delaware-based poultry processor Townsends Inc. planned to close its plant in Batesville, Ark., on Monday.