Should NASCAR be taxed for wasting fuel?

[Loren Booda]

NASCAR is annoying enough, without the figure that over 5% of the nation's gasoline supply (a large percentage of what we are forced to import) is wasted on the non-sport of auto racing. It's time we taxed some sensibility into this American-antithetical conspicuous consumption.

 

[cronxeh]

i always thought nascar is the most retarded thing to watch or even enjoy

let alone participate in

 

[hitssquad]

over 5% of the nation's gasoline supply [...] is wasted on the non-sport of auto racing.

Could you show your math, please?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I say tax all sports right through the roof...say a 100% tax tacked onto all sales. Taxing gas for Nascar, say $5 - $50 per gallon, is a no brainer in my book.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

We could just ban auto racing. We could ban it on the grounds of emissions and useless consumption of resources.
I have a friend who would hate it though.

 

[cronxeh]

You know its a funny thing to say, but if i was ever going to become a mass murder, id probably start off by whacking every NASCAR driver, executive, fan, investor, and employee. Why go easy on people these days? We go to war against terrorists, don't we? Well if you do some calculations and optimization here, you'll see the aforementioned people are far worse than terrorists.

And no, I am not joking.

 

[Loren Booda]

hitssquad,

Unfortunately, it's more my memory than math. Maybe someone could dredge up the actual statistics for me.

Aside: Mercedes pulled out of racing for forty years after one of their cars exploded in the grandstands, killing more than 300 spectators.

 

[Pengwuino]

NASCAR is annoying enough, without the figure that over 5% of the nation's gasoline supply (a large percentage of what we are forced to import) is wasted on the non-sport of auto racing. It's time we taxed some sensibility into this American-antithetical conspicuous consumption.

... since every SUV in this country combined supposedly consumes 10% of the nations gasoline... i REALLY think your figure is off.

While we're at it, let's ban all protests because cars have to stop when the streets are blocked off. How bout movies? Cars have to drive there and all movies suck now-a-days. How bout banning books too, can't hurt trees. All schools should be banned as well, those parking lots are a death trap. Hey let's shut down the internet, it uses quite a lot of power.

Lets also call for the murder of everyone who enjoys Pepsi. Consumer freedom is bad and it takes gas to produce pepsi. Why not people who enjoy carls jr? Death to them, they drive. Hell since I don't like Panda Express, death to every asian. How bout that. I mean we might as well since we're calling for the murder of people who enjoy something we don't enjoy.

 

[Kakarot]

how is it 5%? that can't be right. and taxing sports is a good idea, especially ones that pay the players like $100 million a year

 

[loseyourname]

The highest salary in all of professional sports belongs to Alex Rodriguez, but who is making an average of about $25 million a year over the length of a ten-year contract. Athletes make far more off of endorsements than they do off of salary. They are also already in the highest tax-brackets, and since they aren't business owners (generally speaking), they can't shelter their earnings as easily as many other big-time earners. If you don't like it, don't watch their sports and don't buy the products they endorse. Where do you think the money is coming from?

Jesus Christ, where do you people get off? Yeah, let's tax the hell out of and then kill everyone affiliated with NASCAR because we don't see the point of it as a sport.

 

[hypatia]

I am a race fan, all kinds of races, including NASCAR, Indy, 1/4 mile track and yes even some street racing. I enjoy building cars that go fast, and I work hard{12 hour days} and have the right to spend my time and money how I choose, without idiots thinking I should die for it.
Racing fule is taxed{ i know, I buy it}, and so is my ticket.

 

[gravenewworld]

I also have the right to buy a Hummer and get 5 mi/gallon. Screw the environment because this is the USA. I have the right to do whatever I want.

 

[hypatia]

I can't think of any country that bans/limits any kind of car.

 

[loseyourname]

The taxation of gasoline in many European countries is so exaggerated that it would be virtually impossible for most people to drive as much there as in the US. Of course, the cities are also smaller and commutes shorter, so there isn't as much of a need to drive.

 

[russ_watters]

The highest salary in all of professional sports belongs to Alex Rodriguez, but who is making an average of about $25 million a year over the length of a ten-year contract. Athletes make far more off of endorsements than they do off of salary. They are also already in the highest tax-brackets, and since they aren't business owners (generally speaking), they can't shelter their earnings as easily as many other big-time earners. If you don't like it, don't watch their sports and don't buy the products they endorse. Where do you think the money is coming from?

Jesus Christ, where do you people get off? Yeah, let's tax the hell out of and then kill everyone affiliated with NASCAR because we don't see the point of it as a sport.

Amen, brother.

Gawd, I love freedom and democracy, don't you?

 

[FredGarvin]

I have a hard time believing the 5% usage number. Given the latest number I saw of the US using 400,000,000 gallons a day, I don't think Jeff Gordon et al are using 20 million gallons a day.

Personally, I would much rather create a huge uproar and increase the luxury taxes on fuels used in recreational boats/yachts. In my neck of the woods, I see people fill up monstorously huge boats with $300 in gas a day just to go out and drive in circles. That doesn't include the other environmental damage they do by polluting the waters. But then again, that's just my opinion.

 

[russ_watters]

I can't think of any country that bans/limits any kind of car.

What do you mean by "limits"? The US has pretty strict safety and efficiency standards...

 

[primal schemer]

I say tax all sports right through the roof...say a 100% tax tacked onto all sales.

Are you serious? Why on Earth would you want to tax all sports?? Surely you would want to encourage people to take part in sports! Apart from the obvious health benefits, sports have so many social-skill and character building benefits.

PS

 

[hypatia]

What do you mean by "limits"? The US has pretty strict safety and efficiency standards...

That was in response to Gravenwoods "right to because I'm American" message. I was referring to size of car and how much gas it burns.

 

[cronxeh]

Any 4th year mechanical engineering student could come up with a NASCAR car design - it doesn't take that much of intelligence these days. But to come up with a Toyota Prius that gets 50 mpg actually does, and shows a thing or two about human accomplishments these days.

I don't see how taking out most of NASCAR is a problem in my Ethics books.. let me double check.. nope, still cool with it.

 

[Curious3141]

NASCAR is annoying enough, without the figure that over 5% of the nation's gasoline supply (a large percentage of what we are forced to import) is wasted on the non-sport of auto racing. It's time we taxed some sensibility into this American-antithetical conspicuous consumption.

I'm not a fan of NASCAR per se, but I love motorsports in general. I have a problem with anyone who considers all motor racing to be a "non-sport". I can assure you that top F1 drivers have fitness levels that top fighter pilots can only dream of. Apart from demanding great physical fitness, top level motorsports test reflexes, quick thinking, endurance and courage. And the ability of a race team to come up with a sound pit strategy, modifying it on the fly to fit evolving race conditions and happenings.

I think it's a great sport. If you can't appreciate it, then that's your shortcoming.

 

[Loren Booda]

I've had friends with souped up cars (el Camino and Camero respectively) pushing 400 HP each. Believe it, the former could pull a wheelie. All I am saying is that the cost of performance fuel (for any engine of excess) should reflect the necessity of its use. Nature will take its course in any case.

Andretti 1

Environment 0

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

I can assure you that top F1 drivers have fitness levels that top fighter pilots can only dream of.

...uhhhhh, no. Unless their cars can go 2x the speed of sound or more and they can play "duck, dodge, and hide" while someone shoots guided missiles at them.

Apart from demanding great physical fitness, top level motorsports test reflexes, quick thinking, endurance and courage.

Go fast, turn left. AND they shouldn't be TESTING their whatever when they do it. They should already have them before they climb behind the wheel.

 

[GOD__AM]

Raising taxes on racing gas will just be passed on to the consumer. All major auto manufactures spend tons of money to win races so you will buy their cars. Not to mention that the technology gained from racing means we get better vehicles. Do you really think these manufacturers are going to cut the cooperate salaries to pay the increased taxes...I don't.

 

[GOD__AM]

I can't think of any country that bans/limits any kind of car.

Japan has very strict laws regarding high performance vehicles. I'm not familiar with the laws regarding cars, but motorcycles over 500cc are nearly impossible to get in japan. They actually have whole classes of small cc motors that don't even get imported to speed hungry americans.

 

[TRCSF]

5%? I'd think that the fans driving to the race track would consume more gross gasoline then the NASCAR race itself. Although I suppose if you add up all professional and amateur racing you'd get a disgustingly high number.

Frankly, I think NASCAR is as boring as hell. If there should be a popular racing sport, it should be fat guys racing go-carts. Much more fuel effecient. But that's just my opinion.

Incidently, I've seen news reports of gas costing $3.90 per gallon, regular unleaded, in Michigan. Mid three dollar range in other places. I've also heard a lot of anecdotal reports of gas stations literally running out of gas, all over the country. There's talk of rationing.

 

[Andy]

god some people are stupid. I dream about having a car that only does 4mpg. And the toyota prius 50mpg? that's pretty crap really, i have been in mercedes benz diesels that have got 60mpg and that's with me driving it with a heavy foot! apparently voltswagen diesels are even better and can easily get 70mpg.

 

[cronxeh]

god some people are stupid. I dream about having a car that only does 4mpg. And the toyota prius 50mpg? that's pretty crap really, i have been in mercedes benz diesels that have got 60mpg and that's with me driving it with a heavy foot! apparently voltswagen diesels are even better and can easily get 70mpg.

Hey thanks that's a great point

http://www.distributiondrive.com/Article10.html

If the number of diesel vehicles in private use went from less than 10% to over 60% of the private US vehicle fleet, mirroring European diesel engine adoption rates, we would see a 25% reduction in the amount of oil used in the US.

 

[GOD__AM]

god some people are stupid. I dream about having a car that only does 4mpg. And the toyota prius 50mpg? that's pretty crap really, i have been in mercedes benz diesels that have got 60mpg and that's with me driving it with a heavy foot! apparently voltswagen diesels are even better and can easily get 70mpg.

As stated this is a good point. I remember when diesel was much cheaper than regular leaded gasoline. It takes less refining to make diesel fuel also but the cost of the fuel has risen higher than regular unleaded in this day and age. One more way cooperate america has exploited the american public into paying more for a cheeper product. They pass on the loss of revenue to the consumer.

 

[Andy]

Diesel cars can be fast aswell, rumour hs it that mercedes a releasing a new 4 litre V8 bi turbo diesel engine in the SL class that has a 0-60mph time of about 5 seconds, think it was 5.1 seconds. But that was faster than the 5 litre V8 currently used in the SL500 petrol. Won't stop motor racing as we know it though, just mean that there will be a new class for diesel entries to compete in.

 

[cronxeh]

The only problem is the cost benefit. Consider Toyota Prius - a new car would run you about $20000, and compared to any diesel version of a European car, it will always be cheaper.

Consdering $20k + 50mpg vs $70k + 70 mpg or $500k + 230 mpg I would probably go for $20k + 50 mpg for a few years.. yep.

 

[mattmns]

This reminds me of a joke I once heard on a comedy show. It went something like: "I didn't get NASCAR racing until I met some NASCAR fans. Then I could see how a shiny car going around in circles could fascinate them."

 

[GOD__AM]

The only problem is the cost benefit. Consider Toyota Prius - a new car would run you about $20000, and compared to any diesel version of a European car, it will always be cheaper.

Consdering $20k + 50mpg vs $70k + 70 mpg or $500k + 230 mpg I would probably go for $20k + 50 mpg for a few years.. yep.

And what's your point? Do you really think it costs more money to make a hi mileage diesel than a hi mileage gas engine? As gas prices get higher the difference in your example grows smaller. If everyone stopped buying gas engine cars the price of diesel fuel would climb even more as we consumed less product...

 

[russ_watters]

I'm not a fan of NASCAR per se, but I love motorsports in general. I have a problem with anyone who considers all motor racing to be a "non-sport".

Whether it's a sport or not is utterly irrelevant here. One of the general freedoms on which the US is based is the pursuit of happiness. If pursuing racing (whether watching or participating) makes people happy, then they can - unless it harms those around them, and I think the general consensus is that it doesn't (the 5% seems dubius).

Just a quick off-the-cuff calculation: A big NASCAR race is 500 miles and has 42 cars. At 4mpg (estimate from some googling), that's 5,250 gallons per race. Even if there were a hundred similar races per day in the US, that'd be 525,000 - well short of Fred's 20 million estimate for 5%.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

As for the general argument, all sports are a luxury that should be taxed to the greatest extent possible. This is no different than alcohol, cigarettes, or lottery or gambling winnings. I also think we need to consider creating special taxes for things like parachutes, bikes, rock climbing gear, SCUBA gear, and any other sporting item that relates to costs to the general population. Isn't it fair that people pay for the increased risks and resulting costs [medical and insurance costs, as well as rescue efforts] to all of us that are associated with these activities.

 

[GOD__AM]

As for the general argument, all sports are a luxury that should be taxed to the greatest extent possible. This is no different than alcohol, cigarettes, or lottery or gambling winnings. I also think we need to consider creating special taxes for things like parachutes, bikes, rock climbing gear, SCUBA gear, and any other sporting item that relates to costs to the general population. Isn't it fair that people pay for the increased risks and resulting costs [medical and insurance costs, as well as rescue efforts] to all of us that are associated with these activities.

Wow, with thinking like this we will all be eating soylent green in the near future...You can't be serious.

 

[Kenneth Mann]

NASCAR is annoying enough, without the figure that over 5% of the nation's gasoline supply (a large percentage of what we are forced to import) is wasted on the non-sport of auto racing. It's time we taxed some sensibility into this American-antithetical conspicuous consumption.

What a wonderful idea! - - - but why stop there?

The Airbus A380 - - - will probably fly half empty - - - a waste, get rid of it!
Figure Skating - - - art maybe, but not a sport - - - ban it!
Soccer - - - don't you just love those zero - zero endings?
Rock music - - - performed by amateurs, not musicians - - - time for it to go.
Tattoos - - - body graffiti - - - no need for it to exist.
Sky diving, Mountain climbing, Surfing, Caving, Whitewater excursions - - tie up rescue personnel unnecessarily.
Alcoholic beverages - - - wasteful and sinful - - - must go! Oops, didn't we try that once?
Gambling - - - exploitation of the poor!
Going on vacations - - - non-productive.
Dogs and Cats - - - turn them back to the wild!
Living in houses - - - a total waste - - - small apartments are much more economical!
Extravagant weddings - - - totally excessive!
Reality TV - - - mind numbing!
Beggars - - - How unsightly! Shoot them all!
Flush toilets - - - a total waste of water!
Toilet paper ! - - - - - What's wrong with the hand? It had worked for millennia!
Downloading music and movies - - - unethical! Put an end to it!
Hurricanes - - - Incredibly wasteful! They must go!
SUVs - - - too dangerous - - - they flip over too easily.
Toyota Prius - - - too dangerous - - - it flips ov--- Nah; it's too slow.

What a great idea. let's just get rid of that which we don't like. And to the old Soviet Union we can say "eat your heart out".


KM

 

[GOD__AM]

This thread reminds me of merry old england. /me heads to the Boston Harbor looking for tea.

 

[Curious3141]

...uhhhhh, no. Unless their cars can go 2x the speed of sound or more and they can play "duck, dodge, and hide" while someone shoots guided missiles at them.

Modern F1 cars can easily develop 3.5 lateral gs when cornering. This is a repeated and sustained assault on the axial skeleton, and the neck in particular. F1 races can last more than 70 laps. They have nothing to cushion them from the immense lateral forces other than a headrest, a mandatory HANS (head and neck support) and their own overdeveloped neck musculature. Braking (longitudinal) gs can be up to 5g.

It is true that fighter planes like the F16 can develop 9gs, but experienced pilots very infrequently risk this, because of the physiologic dangers. 2 - 3gs are already considered bad enough because of the damage to the microvasculature of the eye this can cause. Plus fighter pilots have very effective g-suits to cushion them from these forces - formula one drivers have the Nomex suits that mainly protect them from burns.

"Duck and dodge" - do you think there is no skill involved in negotiating a racetrack at speeds of over 200 mph with other cars jostling for position ? Do you think there's no skill involved in avoiding a crash when there's a sudden obstacle in front of you (as in another car spinning or crashing) ? Fighter pilots have tons of electronic aids to warn them of missile lock and electronic countermeasures to foil missiles. It's a fairly slow process, decisions can be taken in seconds rather than the hundredths of seconds expected of decision made by an F1 driver.

Go fast, turn left. AND they shouldn't be TESTING their whatever when they do it. They should already have them before they climb behind the wheel.

Only turn left ? It's obvious your experience of "racing" is limited to NASCAR and maybe Indycar. For me, real racing should include left turns, right turns, short straights, long straights, low speed hairpins and high speed banked corners. The whole works. There is consummate skill involved in learning and taking the correct line around a corner, braking at just the right point, and hitting the apex exactly right. I'm talking about proper circuit racing (or other forms of demanding racing, including rally racing), while you seem to be fixated upon the boring and fairly undemanding oval racing. Before you judge racing, go watch some real racing first.

 

[russ_watters]

As for the general argument, all sports are a luxury that should be taxed to the greatest extent possible. This is no different than alcohol, cigarettes, or lottery or gambling winnings.

Wow - so anything that people might enjoy needs to be taxed? Wow.

Could you explain how that can logically fit with the Constitution?

I also think we need to consider creating special taxes for things like parachutes, bikes, rock climbing gear, SCUBA gear, and any other sporting item that relates to costs to the general population. Isn't it fair that people pay for the increased risks and resulting costs [medical and insurance costs, as well as rescue efforts] to all of us that are associated with these activities.

Well, if this is just about the insurance money, things like scuba diving and skydiving carry their own insurance. My scuba diving will not increase your health insurance costs because your health insurance company does not cover scuba diving accidents.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

When I was looking for stats on fossil fuel consumption for auto racing I actually found a few articles discussing the use of alternative fuels. It reminds me a bit of the book The Differance Engine where people who were interested in making money from racing developed the first engine utilizing petrol instead of steam. It's feasible to think that those in NASCAR may be interested in developing alternative fuel sources that could benefit us all.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Wow - so anything that people might enjoy needs to be taxed? Wow.

Could you explain how that can logically fit with the Constitution? Well, if this is just about the insurance money, things like scuba diving and skydiving carry their own insurance. My scuba diving will not increase your health insurance costs because your health insurance company does not cover scuba diving accidents.

Most of things these already are quite expensive too.
I went skydiving once. One tandum jump cost $120. To take classes and jump on your own cost quite a bit more.

 

[GOD__AM]

When I was looking for stats on fossil fuel consumption for auto racing I actually found a few articles discussing the use of alternative fuels. It reminds me a bit of the book The Differance Engine where people who were interested in making money from racing developed the first engine utilizing petrol instead of steam. It's feasible to think that those in NASCAR may be interested in developing alternative fuel sources that could benefit us all.

Cart and Indy cars have used alcohol for decades, as have certain classes of drag racing and motorcycle racing. Any gas engine can be converted to use alcohol with simple carburation changes resulting in more horse power. Instead of some of you preaching the evils of fossile fuel consumption, maybe you should lead by example.

 

[russ_watters]

Most of things these already are quite expensive too.
I went skydiving once. One tandum jump cost $120. To take classes and jump on your own cost quite a bit more.

I went all the way, baby - I only did one jump, but it was a solo (two instructors next to me, but not attached) freefall from 13,500 feet and I flew and landed my own chute.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Cart and Indy cars have used alcohol for decades, as have certain classes of drag racing and motorcycle racing. Any gas engine can be converted to use alcohol with simple carburation changes resulting in more horse power. Instead of some of you preaching the evils of fossile fuel consumption, maybe you should lead by example.

I'd be all for it if I could afford to do it to my car and have a supply and all. That and be sure that my engine would be capable of taking the new fuel without damaging it too much. Oh and make sure I have a supply off alcohol fuel too.

I went all the way, baby - I only did one jump, but it was a solo (two instructors next to me, but not attached) freefall from 13,500 feet and I flew and landed my own chute.

Mine was a last minute decision. I pretty much had to go tandum. I think I would have preferred solo because landing with a little man strapped to your back really sucks. My tail bone hurt for over a month.

 

[primal schemer]

As for the general argument, all sports are a luxury that should be taxed to the greatest extent possible. This is no different than alcohol, cigarettes, or lottery or gambling winnings. I also think we need to consider creating special taxes for things like parachutes, bikes, rock climbing gear, SCUBA gear, and any other sporting item that relates to costs to the general population. Isn't it fair that people pay for the increased risks and resulting costs [medical and insurance costs, as well as rescue efforts] to all of us that are associated with these activities.

What about the medical costs as a result of lack of exercise. How many people have medical conditions as a result of not exercising? As TheStatutoryApe already said, any danger sports that are out there are usually quite expensive, and insurance is included in the price.

I'm not sure how you can compare drinking alcohol or smoking to taking part in sports.

On a related note, what do people think is more important, physical fitness or mental fitness? Personally I think the two are related, I always notice I get more work done after exercising. If I don't exercise for a few weeks I start to feel tired, stay in bed longer etc. But in terms of a general lifestyle, I'd prefer to be healthy and fit than smart. What do you think??

PS

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

Before you judge racing, go watch some real racing first.

Eeeeeeazy big fella. How about hanging onto a sidecar with your noggin scraping the ground? I've never done it but it sounds more taxing and dangerous than riding in a car like a sissy. Balloon racing...now there's a sport. Especially if you can shoot flaming arrows at the other racers. On another note, I remember reading somewhere that Major League Baseball dosen't pay some sort of taxes and it began way back in the '30's or something. Anyone else heard of this?

ps: I don't normally drink coffee and I had a double mocha this morning so I can't be held responsible for my actions, especially the sweats, vibrating, and fits of Tourettes. Love ya...call me...mean it...