Programs Should You Pursue a Physics PhD? Advice from Brian Schwartz

[gravenewworld]

And those are exactly the topics that will keep you unemployed.

LOL Blunt & brutal but true.

 

[colin.mcenroe]

Isn't that the starting pay scale you are referring to? I would assume that over time it would go up.

 

[Dr Transport]

Now that i have been quiet for a couple of pages of posts, let me make a few general staements to tie up some things...

As many of us have said, be careful about jumping into a PhD program, you might get into it too far to get out but may be pigeon holed into something that may prevent you from being employable later.

No one here said that the road to a PhD is easy, far from it, the satisfaction in getting the degree should be first and foremost. ZapperZ, myself, Astronuc and a host of others here with the credentials will be the first to tell you. Persoanlly I got so ticked off at my advisor I threatend to quit at least 3 times, only to come back the next day to take more abuse and work all the harder. Each time we went out to lunch, buried the hatchet and had a couple of cold coctails, we would both settle down and life would get back to normal.

If your advisor has a sense of reality, they will try to get you to keep your options open for later employment, remember that they are not just your advisors, but mentors, both personal and professional. To this day I still email or talk to my advisor at least once a week, he does the same to his advisor and he earned his degree in 1977.

Working towards your degree while being employed full-time is not a bad thing. You can live comfortably and better yet maybe get your employer to pay for your eduaction. You and they will apreciate it much more and if they are decent, reward you down the road.

If you work hard, you can get your degree, and if you are willing to take on adversity, you can obtain your goals no matter what you want to do. If you insist onan academic career or a govt lab or something else, someday you can get there if you persevere. Be realistic, work hard and if nothing else have fun doing what you are doing.

 

[Quaoar]

And those are exactly the topics that will keep you unemployed.

Haha, who cares? If you are doing a topic that is primarily academic, then you've chosen to remain in academia. Some people make this choice because they love the subject. It's not all about money.

 

[leright]

Well, I have decided to pursue a PhD in physics (or possibly in electrical engineering) to study solid state device physics. I am hoping this field of study will give me a decent amount of opportunities in the semiconductor industry. However, ideally I would land a solid tenure track faculty position. Getting tenure is usually a tough road, but once you get it must be nice to have such amazing job security. Plus, in academia I would have more control over my research and more job flexibility.

If I were given the choice of either a postdoc or a long term industry position when I finished the PhD, I would have to pick the industry position. I think that industry prepares you for a faculty position just as well as a postdoc, and the pay is much better. I know lots of professors that got their PhDs, got industry positions, and then took associate professor positions later in life.

Also, as others have said, you don't do a PhD for financial reasons...you do a PhD because of a passion for the subject you're studying.

BTW, it seems the semiconductor company engineering and research positions equate a PhD with 4-6 years of experience in the semiconductor field. A lot of the positions (Intel, for instance) request a BS with 4-6 years of experience, MS with 2-3 years experience, or a PhD.

 

[Cyrus]

Haha, who cares? If you are doing a topic that is primarily academic, then you've chosen to remain in academia. Some people make this choice because they love the subject. It's not all about money.

Because how many universities and government lab positions are there in the country compared to industry?

I care. I want money that reflects my ability. If I love the subject, Ill read it on my own time. I don't need to be underpaid just to love it.

 

[StatusX]

Youtch. 12k a year is pitiful. Most entry level engineers get starting of around 45-50k per year. Thats more than double.

Yea, but then you're an entry level engineer, not a physics grad student. I'd choose the latter if the former paid 10 times as much. It's easy to make money; I'm looking for a challenge.

 

[Cyrus]

No, not really. In 4-6 years you won't be an entry level engineer anymore, and you can be earning the same pay as the guy who just finished his PhD and got hired.

Whats so special about being a grad student? If you are going to work in industry, I promise you that your co-workers with experience know more than you after you graduate with your graduate degree.

I'm looking for a challenge

You think Industry is easy? Grad school doesn't fire you if you fail to do your task as fast and cheap as possible. There are just as many challenges in one as the other. In fact, in industry your now dealing with the real world and all its complications. Its going to be interesting when your formulas predict one thing and you get something else because of variations.

 

[gravenewworld]

Haha, who cares? If you are doing a topic that is primarily academic, then you've chosen to remain in academia. Some people make this choice because they love the subject. It's not all about money.

Money does matter. Do you want to travel the world a little bit? Are you going to need a new car to drive in the future? What about a down payment for a house? Do you want children? What about your kids' college tuitions? What about your student loans that you have to pay back with interest? Can you afford to set aside a few hundred dollars per month into a retirement account? What about groceries? What about utilities? What about a mortgage or rent? What about insurance payments? What about health care costs? What about money to buy new clothes? Have you ever even worried about these things yet? Creditors don't care about you, your situation, or how educated you are. When your bill is due, they will want their money. If you don't have it they can screw you royally.


I make roughly $50k per year with my BS straight out of college. Sometimes I even have trouble making ends meet with all the bills I have and that salary, especially when gas was over $3.00 per gallon. I don't even have a family for christ's sake! I would definitely have to work two jobs if I had a family to support. You should definitely keep in the back of your mind how much you stand to make in the future with the education you are going to pursue. Those that don't tend to end up in miserable conditions. Money is what makes the world go round, if you are going to completely ignore this aspect you are living in a dream world my friend. The world is not a nice place.

 

[StatusX]

And again, I'd rather be a physics post-doc than a mid-level (or high-level) engineer, even if it paid x times as much. Ultimately you have to set your own goals, and you have to understand that while yours is apparently making a lot of money, not everyone else's is.

And how is physics research further from the real world than industry? Yea, it lacks all the noise like company politics, profitability, etc, but those are just annoying variables. If anything, it's closer to the real world. If my equations don't exactly work with your project, then it's because of other trivial, case specific facts, and I'll leave to the engineers to work on those, if it's economically practical for their bosses to allocate their resources that way that day.

 

[leright]

Whats so special about being a grad student? If you are going to work in industry, I promise you that your co-workers with experience know more than you after you graduate with your graduate degree.

Not necessarily. While the people in industry are doing paper work and administrative duties and dealing with red tape (which isn't necessarily hard to learn...just boring and annoying) the graduate students are spending almost all of their time learning technical subject matter and working on their research.

 

[Cyrus]

The point of any company is to put out a product fast that works. They don't care two cents about the theory of why it works. Thats YOUR job in getting a PhD. Thats NOT what the company cares about.

Not necessarily. While the people in industry are doing paper work and administrative duties and dealing with red tape (which isn't necessarily hard to learn...just boring and annoying) the graduate students are spending almost all of their time learning technical subject matter and working on their research.

What? No, they are doing engineering work and analysis. Things like FEA, PDP, and the like. They have experience doing what you read in a book.

For one of my classes, we work with DeWalt power tools. We took a tour of their design facilities. They were doing technical work and analysis. Maybe you should visit more companies and see the real work that people do. Its not sitting behind a desk doing paperwork.

 

[leright]

What? No, they are doing engineering work and analysis. Things like FEA, PDP, and the like. They have experience doing what you read in a book.

You keep telling yourself that.

And if some engineers get the opportunity to do that, trust me...the grad students are doing it too. The grad students where I am doing my REU use cadence, ansys, labview, etc extensively, but are not burdened with the red tape of industrial processes.

However, I will say learning how to deal with beauracracy is a very important skill, but a few months at the company you are working for is all you need in order to master this.

Grad school is very much unlike ugrad school...

 

[Cyrus]

What experience are you telling me this from leright? The fact is, most engineers do go into product development, and that involves engineering analysis and testing on the product.

You as a graduate student do not use labview cadence or ansys to the full level that industry does. Maybe I should take you to the DeWalt company and show you the parts they have on Catia that have hundreds of man-hours dedicated to them.

 

[gravenewworld]

Not necessarily. While the people in industry are doing paper work and administrative duties and dealing with red tape (which isn't necessarily hard to learn...just boring and annoying) the graduate students are spending almost all of their time learning technical subject matter and working on their research.

trust me, if you met the MA and BS people where I work that have 10-20+ years experience in industry, you would definitely mistake them for PhDs. One of our BS chemists wrote a paper on a reaction he accidentally discovered while working on a project. Emails started flooding into his mail box with questions about his reaction. Most of them started with "Dear Dr. _____".

Whenever we interview a candidate for a post doc position we ask them if they know or ever have carried out what is known as a "suzuki coupling". Most of the time the PhDs have only barely heard of it and have never done one. I have done suzuki reactions many times over as it is one of the most useful reactions in the real world and know how it works. Industry teaches you what is practical and most efficient, university teaches you theory. What grad students learn in a textbook, myself and others are actually doing it in the lab. If you read one of my posts earlier, we had a phd one time deviate from a synthetic scheme that was already known to work because he thought he could come up with a better way. The theory said his way should work, but guess what? His proposed scheme was an abysmal failure and it ended up costing thousands of dollars in wasted precious chemicals.

 

[StatusX]

I don't think there's anything wrong with industry if you kind of like understanding as much as possible about the world and really like money and success. But if your priorities are the other way around, there's nothing wrong with a PhD. Of course, passion isn't enough, and only a select few actually get through the process and have a career in academia, and the rest face a harder time getting by. But that's the risk you take, and it's more than worth it to a lot of people. Anyone who's actually persuaded by this thread not to pursue a PhD shouldn't pursue a PhD, so as much I disagree with some of the things said here, it's good that they're being said.

 

[leright]

What experience are you telling me this from leright? The fact is, most engineers do go into product development.

yes, and 'product development' consists of lots of beaurocracy. Nearly all engineers working in industry will spend well over half of their time dealing with 'paperwork' that often has absolutely nothing to do with technical subject matter, or has very little to do with technical subject matter.

 

[Cyrus]

And the other half of the time, there doing what...analysis at a level you WONT do as a graduate student. Things that involve teams of qualified individuals and hundreds of hours of labor.

Lets say you work at Boeing. Do you think as a graduate student your going to do work at the same level as the engineers designing the new 747? At best, you will look at a small small subsystem or an overall generalized picture. You won't have to worry about buying the actual parts, you won't have to worry about subsystem integration. You won't worry about cost.

There are so many little things that you just DONT pick up in graduate school that you must pick up in industry.

 

[gravenewworld]

yes, and 'product development' consists of lots of beaurocracy. Nearly all engineers working in industry will spend well over half of their time dealing with 'paperwork' that often has absolutely nothing to do with technical subject matter, or has very little to do with technical subject matter.

To be honest paper work SUCKS. I won't lie to you, yes I do it. You have to do it for legal reasons (patents etc.) It really isn't that much of a burden like you make it out to be. My paper work consists of 1.) writing a monthly report summarizing everything I did for the month (which takes about 2 hours per month) 2.) writing up my lab notebook (which takes 1-2 hours per week). Everyone has pretty much converted to electronic notebooks, so it really isn't all that bad.

You want to know who does the most paper work? THE PHDS!
The PhDs hardly ever set foot in the lab they are busy coming up with ideas for synthesis, writing reports, and doing presentations. Where do you live? You can come shadow me at my work, I would have no problem with it. No one except the PhDs are qualified enough to write up rough drafts for legal patents on new ideas/chemical entities. The PhDs spend most of their time doing that kind of stuff where I work. All the PhDs at my work are also required EVERY YEAR to submit at least 1 article to a journal, which is a huge pain in the arse. You should see how long it takes to write up, collect all the data, revise, critique, and submit an article to a decent journal.

 

[leright]

Lets say you work at Boeing. Do you think as a graduate student your going to do work at the same level as the engineers designing the new 747?

Perhaps. The immense task of designing a 747 is divided up between thousands of people.

 

[leright]

You want to know who does the most paper work? THE PHDS!
The PhDs hardly ever set foot in the lab they are busy coming up with ideas for synthesis, writing reports, and doing presentations. Where do you live? You can come shadow me at my work, I would have no problem with it. No one except the PhDs are qualified enough to write up rough drafts for legal patents on new ideas/chemical entities. The PhDs spend most of their time doing that kind of stuff where I work. All the PhDs at my work are also required EVERY YEAR to submit at least 1 article to a journal, which is a huge pain in the arse. You should see how long it takes to write up, collect all the data, revise, critique, and submit an article to a decent journal.

Well, I would rather like to be in the PhD's position at your company, despite the level of stress it carries. It is technical paperwork they are usually doing.

 

[Cyrus]

I would like to know out of all the people who get a PhD, how many actually get a post-doc and how many get kicked to the curb. It just seems that the number of positions has to be so small compared to the number of positions in industry that its a BIG risk in getting a PhD and thinking you will ever see any work in academia.

It feels like an unnecessary and stupid risk, IMO.

You can always go back and get a PhD, so why not look before you leap and work first?

 

[leright]

I would like to know out of all the people who get a PhD, how many actually get a post-doc and how many get kicked to the curb. It just seems that the number of positions has to be so small compared to the number of positions in industry that its a BIG risk in getting a PhD and thinking you will ever see any work in academia.

It feels like an unnecessary and stupid risk, IMO.

You can always go back and get a PhD, so why not look before you leap and work first?

It's very hard to go back and get a PhD. I am doing it now because I have a feeling that if I don't I will never do it. The PhD is not a part time endevour and it's not something I see myself considering in my mid-thirties. At that point, after working in industry for 10 years, I would probably be considering an MBA instead.

Look at the link Zz provided. That provides a lot of (promising) information for physics PhDs and will answer you question.

And I am doing a PhD simply because I really like physics and graduate school is the best place for my to advance my physics understanding. Period.

 

[Cyrus]

Chroot and Bekerman work in the semiconductor industry, I think. Id like to hear what they have to say about this.

Also, Fred can tell us about the Aerospace industry, and Astronuc about the Nuclear Industry.

Lets see what people with experience have to say on the issue.


Also, people in academia or teachers. How many new hires do you all have for PhDs?

 

[Quaoar]

I make roughly $50k per year with my BS straight out of college. Sometimes I even have trouble making ends meet with all the bills I have and that salary, especially when gas was over $3.00 per gallon. I don't even have a family for christ's sake! I would definitely have to work two jobs if I had a family to support. You should definitely keep in the back of your mind how much you stand to make in the future with the education you are going to pursue. Those that don't tend to end up in miserable conditions. Money is what makes the world go round, if you are going to completely ignore this aspect you are living in a dream world my friend. The world is not a nice place.

Some people can handle living frugally, others can't. I current live in one of the most expensive areas in the country, and my current salary is in the 50k range. Yet somehow, magically, I still manage to put away a grand in my savings account every month.

Some people NEED to spend money on all sorts of extra-curricular activities to stay sane. And perhaps a career as an academic is not appropriate for these sorts of people. What I'm trying to get at is that blanket statements about how an academic career sucks because the money isn't as good as industry alternatives are silly, because there are people out there who can live that life and enjoy it.

 

[gravenewworld]

Some people can handle living frugally, others can't. I current live in one of the most expensive areas in the country, and my current salary is in the 50k range. Yet somehow, magically, I still manage to put away a grand in my savings account every month.

Some people NEED to spend money on all sorts of extra-curricular activities to stay sane. And perhaps a career as an academic is not appropriate for these sorts of people. What I'm trying to get at is that blanket statements about how an academic career sucks because the money isn't as good as industry alternatives are silly, because there are people out there who can live that life and enjoy it.

Maybe it is the fact that I am burdened with a 50 grand in college loans and just had to buy a new car because I was in a car accident are the reasons why I have no money left. It isn't like i am blowing hundreds of dollars on slot machines in Atlantic City. Actually, out of all of my friends, I am probably the most frugal.

My monthly income minus tax=$2300

Monthly expenses:
rent: $433
gas: $125 during winter
electric: $30
student loans: $260 (I usually don't pay more than $50 over what is due so I can keep the nice big fat tax deduction on the interest payments)
car payments: $411
car insurance: $125
cable: $50
gasoline: $160
groceries:$300-400
health club membership: $40


that leaves roughly $400 per month that I have for random crap like investing, health care payments that might come up, paying credit card bills, entertainment, and saving in general.

 

[chroot]

Chroot and Bekerman work in the semiconductor industry, I think. Id like to hear what they have to say about this.

...say about what, exactly? I don't have time to read this enormous thread.

- Warren

 

[Dr Transport]

I work in industry, I won't say which but it is as challenging as any day I spent in grad school. There isn't a day that goes by where I do not do some type of physics. Yes, I do a lot of paperwork, but if I don't I won't get funded next year and I won't have the freedom to work problems of my choosing. I am constrained in the type of research I can do but it took me 5 years before I could go out and market myself and my groups cababilities to get external funding to work important issues.

The group I work in is multisite and multidiscipline. We have degrees in engineering, physics, chemistry amd materials science. Our collective experience makes us an industry leader in what we do and our methodical approach to issues and problems has convinced our customer that we are the ones to fund.

Anyone who thinks that a physicist going into industry will be bored is sorely mistaken. I spent the first year reading something everynight pertaining to my job. I worked out more fundamental theory to help me learn what my coworkers already knew from years of expierence and I thought I had a decent background from getting my degree, I was mistaken, I still didn't know jack but I asked questions, observed and ran all kinds of experiments to gain some knowledge. After about 3-4 months of working day and night to learn, I started to put my two cents in in meetings, after a year, they were asking my opinion and two years later I was leading design tasks as a junior level engineer. Even though I changed areas of thrust, I still get phone calls from people in my former area asking questions and still contact many of my former coworkers for help in solving problems.

Anyone else?

 

[colin.mcenroe]

Dr Transport, do you think you would have been able to attain the same status with respect to your job had you foregone a phd and simply left grad school with a masters? Similarly, are your coworkers all phds? If not, how are the ones with masters doing?

Thank you for your reply!

Colin

 

[Quaoar]

Maybe it is the fact that I am burdened with a 50 grand in college loans and just had to buy a new car because I was in a car accident are the reasons why I have no money left. It isn't like i am blowing hundreds of dollars on slot machines in Atlantic City. Actually, out of all of my friends, I am probably the most frugal.

My monthly income minus tax=$2300

Monthly expenses:
rent: $433
gas: $125 during winter
electric: $30
student loans: $260 (I usually don't pay more than $50 over what is due so I can keep the nice big fat tax deduction on the interest payments)
car payments: $411
car insurance: $125
cable: $50
gasoline: $160
groceries:$300-400
health club membership: $40


that leaves roughly $400 per month that I have for random crap like investing, health care payments that might come up, paying credit card bills, entertainment, and saving in general.

In that case, I would say that getting a PhD is not for you.

But that's OK! The point I'm making is that its not appropriate for everyone, only those who are willing to make some sacrifices. If you have a ton of familial or financial commitments, you probably won't be focused enough to succeed in your graduate career anyway.