Smaller diameter pressure outlet to increase force?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the effects of reducing the diameter of a pressure outlet on airflow speed and pressure in a hose system. Participants explore concepts related to fluid dynamics, particularly in the context of incompressible and compressible fluids, and the implications of applying Bernoulli's principle.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether reducing the outlet diameter increases airflow speed or pressure, suggesting a relationship similar to the ideal gas law.
  • Another participant explains that for incompressible fluids, Bernoulli's principle indicates that as the diameter decreases, the velocity of the fluid must increase to maintain a constant flow rate, which may lead to a decrease in static pressure.
  • Some participants note that while the velocity increases, the dynamic pressure rises and static pressure decreases, resulting in no net change in total pressure, assuming negligible friction losses.
  • There is a clarification that incompressible flow and constant flow rate are not the same, with one participant emphasizing the need for careful application of Bernoulli's equation in compressible flows.
  • Another participant points out that for air at low speeds (below Mach 0.3), it can be treated as incompressible, but cautions against oversimplifying the application of Bernoulli's principle in compressible scenarios.
  • A later reply confirms that if the flow rate remains constant, fluid particles must speed up as they pass through the smaller outlet, raising questions about how to measure the resulting force in the new tube.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that reducing the outlet diameter leads to increased fluid velocity, but there is contention regarding the implications for pressure and the application of fluid dynamics principles, particularly in compressible versus incompressible flows. The discussion remains unresolved on some technical aspects.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the assumptions made regarding fluid compressibility and the application of Bernoulli's equation, particularly in varying flow conditions and the effects of friction. The discussion does not resolve these complexities.

Pharrahnox
Messages
106
Reaction score
0
I have a hose that temporarily stores pressure in it, and it is about 19.05mm (3/4 inch). The outlet diameter is 8mm, so the air is squeezing into an area ~0.4 times the size. Does this increase the air flow speed, or the pressure?

Does it follow a rule similar to:

P1*V1 = P2*V2

except with area instead of volume?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
For an incompressible fluid, this can be worked out with Bernoulli's principle (which is just the conservation of energy for fluids).
[itex]\frac{1}{2}\rho v^{2} +\rho g h + PV = \text{const}[/itex]

If you assume the fluid flows at a constant rate (that it is incompressible), it must be flowing faster (the velocity of the bits of water, not the flow rate) as the diameter of the hose goes down (so that the same number of liters per second is coming out the nozzle as comes into it). If the height doesn't change, then the pressure must go down.

Of course, talking about air means that the density can change too, but there is a similar equation governing compressible fluids.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli's_principle

Hope this helps:)
 
The velocity of the incompressible fluid increases. Due to this, the dynamic pressure increases as the static pressure decreases leaving no net change in pressure, overall (neglecting losses due to friction).
 
jfizzix said:
If you assume the fluid flows at a constant rate (that it is incompressible)

Incompressible flow and fluid flowing at a constant rate are not the same thing.

jfizzix said:
Of course, talking about air means that the density can change too, but there is a similar equation governing compressible fluids.

The density is not necessarily changing in air either. For air moving less than roughly Mach 0.3, the change in density is effectively zero in a flow and it can be treated as incompressible.

You also have to be very careful applying Bernoulli's equation with corrections for compressibility. Especially in compressible flows you don't necessarily have some neatly packaged equation that you can just apply willy-nilly. In particular, just blindly applying a Bernoulli-like relation tells you nothing about whether the flow is choked or if there are shocks anywhere in the system.

Anyway, assuming an incompressible, steady flow, the velocity will increase when the hose constricts since the mass flowing trough the tune must go somewhere (it remains constant). To pass it through a smaller tube the flow must speed up. Bernoulli's equation is the energy conservation relation in this situation for an inviscid flow, and shows that the static pressure drops as the velocity increases.
 
Incompressible flow and constant flow rate are indeed not the same thing.

If the fluid is incompressible, the flow rate through any cross sectional area over the length of the nozzle must be the same (as seen from the continuity equation), though it need not be constant in time (say if the air hose is connected to a tank which depletes over time).

It could be that the flow rate is constant throughout the extent of the system, but changing in time.

It would have been better to say that the flow rate is not changing
 
Ok, so the flow rate stays the same, and in order for that to be the case, each fluid particle must speed up through the smaller tube?

So if I were to measure the new force of that, from it being 800000pc in the 2.865x10-4m2 hose, it would now be ?pc in the 5.027x10-5m2 tube?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 32 ·
2
Replies
32
Views
12K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 43 ·
2
Replies
43
Views
7K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
5K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K