Sound transmission to the brain

[Snoopy1234]

Why can’t you just use speakers?

but no Mr. Dale, otherwise what kind of project would it be, the speakers all use them

 

[Dale]

Then as far as I know there is no other way to transmit sound to a person without the person having some sort of equipment.

Do you have any professional scientific papers that suggest there is such a mechanism?

 

[Motore]

There is a new device (speakers) that creates a sound bubble around a specific person without wearing headphones or any equipment. Of course it's not exactly what the OP wants, but it is similar.
https://apnews.com/article/new-tech-device-sound-beaming-noveto-38327ae5fe116080a5eaf2374eb0f5c8

 

[Snoopy1234]

Then as far as I know there is no other way to transmit sound to a person without the person having some sort of equipment.

Do you have any professional scientific papers that suggest there is such a mechanism?

yes https://www.futuroprossimo.it/2020/...beamer-invia-musica-direttamente-al-cervello/
but this is use ultrasonic technology

 

[Snoopy1234]

It cannot be done at this time, and probably not for a very long time, if ever. The inner ear takes a vibrational motion of small hairs and turns that into signals that are sent to the brain through a long chain of neurons that both transmit and process these signals. Your goal would be to excite some part of this chain in exactly the right way as to mimic the signal from a real sound wave that has been detected and possibly been partially processed. And since we don't fully understand the processing steps that take place, you're already running into a large dead end even before we talk about HOW you would induce a signal in these neurons.

Targeting the first cells in the chain, the ones that convert the vibrational motion into electrical impulses is almost as problematic. The problem is that you have to somehow target the exact right cells and then somehow activate them without direct contact via an electrode. I know of no way to do either of these.

The first problem is already basically insurmountable, as you would have know exactly where the right cells are in the recipient's body to within a very, very small tolerance (on the order of micrometers), and you would also need to immobilize the intended recipient to keep them from moving and spoiling your 'aim'. Just mapping out the exact cells to target is probably not possible without seriously expensive equipment and procedures. And you would need to do this for every recipient, as every person is built slightly different.

Then you run into the problem of how to activate these cells from a distance. The only conceivable way to do so would be through electromagnetic radiation or induction, but I know of no way to use either of these to activate neurons at the required resolution. Even modern electromagnetic induction stimulation typically stimulates sections of the brain much, much larger than single neuron. Also note that the frequency of EM waves required to get single-cell resolution is about 3 THz, which is strongly absorbed by the human body and won't get through enough tissue to reach the inner ear or brain.

The equipment needed is also not practical. Quote from this source:
Also, regarding 'resolution' as I mentioned above (bolding mine):
Unfortunately, without some sort of receiving equipment implanted into the brain or ear your idea simply isn't possible at this time.

thank you guys always come for the patience you show me compared to other Italian forums, on the other hand I have always thought that you Americans are more prepared. Anyway, singer Drakkith, I have read your answer carefully, and I think you are referring too much to a cochlear implant, but I only took it as an example, in fact in the previous thread I had talked about bone conduction people can hear radio stations through dental fillings, but there are cases where people can hear even if they have nothing internally but are close to something metallic (which creates a diode), and therefore even if the source is EXTERNAL, as in my case. In fact, the rectified alternating current is formed by a pulsed direct current, but always "pulsations", as a consequence of the frequencies and amplitudes of the signal or as I want to call it, intensity in Volts. So, using a "pulsed current" of a given frequency and intensity, can I mimic the operation of a rectified alternating current? In my humble opinion I could do it, but I would like your considerations

 

[Snoopy1234]

There is a new device (speakers) that creates a sound bubble around a specific person without wearing headphones or any equipment. Of course it's not exactly what the OP wants, but it is similar.
https://apnews.com/article/new-tech-device-sound-beaming-noveto-38327ae5fe116080a5eaf2374eb0f5c8

yes mr. Motore,
your post contains a technology that I have already known for a few hours. But I would like to finish my job and I think I am very close to it

 

[Snoopy1234]

It cannot be done at this time, and probably not for a very long time, if ever. The inner ear takes a vibrational motion of small hairs and turns that into signals that are sent to the brain through a long chain of neurons that both transmit and process these signals. Your goal would be to excite some part of this chain in exactly the right way as to mimic the signal from a real sound wave that has been detected and possibly been partially processed. And since we don't fully understand the processing steps that take place, you're already running into a large dead end even before we talk about HOW you would induce a signal in these neurons.

Targeting the first cells in the chain, the ones that convert the vibrational motion into electrical impulses is almost as problematic. The problem is that you have to somehow target the exact right cells and then somehow activate them without direct contact via an electrode. I know of no way to do either of these.

The first problem is already basically insurmountable, as you would have know exactly where the right cells are in the recipient's body to within a very, very small tolerance (on the order of micrometers), and you would also need to immobilize the intended recipient to keep them from moving and spoiling your 'aim'. Just mapping out the exact cells to target is probably not possible without seriously expensive equipment and procedures. And you would need to do this for every recipient, as every person is built slightly different.

Then you run into the problem of how to activate these cells from a distance. The only conceivable way to do so would be through electromagnetic radiation or induction, but I know of no way to use either of these to activate neurons at the required resolution. Even modern electromagnetic induction stimulation typically stimulates sections of the brain much, much larger than single neuron. Also note that the frequency of EM waves required to get single-cell resolution is about 3 THz, which is strongly absorbed by the human body and won't get through enough tissue to reach the inner ear or brain.

The equipment needed is also not practical. Quote from this source:
Also, regarding 'resolution' as I mentioned above (bolding mine):
Unfortunately, without some sort of receiving equipment implanted into the brain or ear your idea simply isn't possible at this time.

Mr. Drakkith, sorry if I confuse you with all these quotes, but I don't know how to use the forum well. However I found the Quora link where a person, Sebastiaan Fraikin claims he can listen to radio waves both from his fillings and probably from his bed which may be rusted and creates a diode junction, however this is not what interests us, but rather the fact that the metal is far from the recipient but not internal. I recommend that you read all the Quora link responses, even that of JG McLean

 

[Snoopy1234]

guys I really want to thank you for the help you are giving me, in no Italian forum have I had this affection, thank you very much, and I hope to be able to finish this endless project, I hope to do it together, thank you very much

 

[Dale]

yes https://www.futuroprossimo.it/2020/...beamer-invia-musica-direttamente-al-cervello/
but this is use ultrasonic technology

Those are speakers.

You need to be clear about your requirements. If you are not permitted to use speakers then there is no solution that I know of. If what you linked is a solution then you are permitted to use speakers.

 

[Snoopy1234]

Those are speakers.

You need to be clear about your requirements. If you are not permitted to use speakers then there is no solution that I know of. If what you linked is a solution then you are permitted to use speakers.

I believe that these are speakers that create a bubble, in fact, only he and not those around them can hear the sound, but as I said this is not what I would like, but it is a good technology

 

[Snoopy1234]

Those are speakers.

You need to be clear about your requirements. If you are not permitted to use speakers then there is no solution that I know of. If what you linked is a solution then you are permitted to use speakers.

what do you think of my assumptions about the electrical pulses sent with coupling ?? they can make bones resonate, also because they have the same characteristics as a rectified alternating current

 

[hutchphd]

Those are speakers.

Seems to me things the do ultrasound are more often called transducers but this pure semantics. But the high power phased ultrasonic arrays can be modulated to reproduce audio in suitable nonlinear material. It is not clear to me whether this can produce voices in your head or not...

 

[nasu]

Not only they use speakers, but the listener uses his ears to listen. Transmitting ultrasound to the brain undisturbed and focused is not a trivial task. The skull structure is a very strong scatterer of sound waves. There are only a few spots, the temporal windows and the eyes that give you ultrasound access to the brain. Other than that you need very sophisticated algorithms to correct for diffraction and scattering. And you need to know the exact shape of the skull layers. Brain imaging with ultrasound is still a matter of research.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Is this (and the other thread) ultimately about people hearing voices nobody else can? In the vast majority of such cases, psychology or psychiatry is a more appropriate science than physics.

 

[Dale]

as I said this is not what I would like, but it is a good technology

Then I don’t think what you are asking for is possible. Do you have any scientific reference that shows it is possible?

 

[hutchphd]

Not only they use speakers, but the listener uses his ears to listen. Transmitting ultrasound to the brain undisturbed and focused is not a trivial task. The skull structure is a very strong scatterer of sound waves. There are only a few spots, the temporal windows and the eyes that give you ultrasound access to the brain. Other than that you need very sophisticated algorithms to correct for diffraction and scattering. And you need to know the exact shape of the skull layers. Brain imaging with ultrasound is still a matter of research.

The ultrasound is not to be directly "heard" by the cochlea in the ear. Rather the skull is set to vibrate by the strong (and focussed by the phased array) ultrasound and nonlinearities in the response (the strong scattering) reproduce the sonic modulation. Bone conduction does the rest. Anyone who has had their teeth cleaned ultrasonically knows the subharmonics. I don't know whether the response is flat enough across frequencies to reproduce speech...probably sound like Mickey Mouse in any scenario. Details of the skull (diffraction and scattering) only matter in this regard.

 

[Snoopy1234]

Not only they use speakers, but the listener uses his ears to listen. Transmitting ultrasound to the brain undisturbed and focused is not a trivial task. The skull structure is a very strong scatterer of sound waves. There are only a few spots, the temporal windows and the eyes that give you ultrasound access to the brain. Other than that you need very sophisticated algorithms to correct for diffraction and scattering. And you need to know the exact shape of the skull layers. Brain imaging with ultrasound is still a matter of research.

The ultrasonic tecnhology i don't care my thread talks about anything else

 

[Snoopy1234]

The ultrasound is not to be directly "heard" by the cochlea in the ear. Rather the skull is set to vibrate by the strong (and focussed by the phased array) ultrasound and nonlinearities in the response (the strong scattering) reproduce the sonic modulation. Bone conduction does the rest. Anyone who has had their teeth cleaned ultrasonically knows the subharmonics. I don't know whether the response is flat enough across frequencies to reproduce speech...probably sound like Mickey Mouse in any scenario. Details of the skull (diffraction and scattering) only matter in this regard.

ultrasound is the last resort I can dwell on, but it is an Israeli technology I know little about. Instead the one I ask uses electricity and not ultrasound, I have talked about electrical impulses through coupling, can this work?

 

[Drakkith]

in fact in the previous thread I had talked about bone conduction people can hear radio stations through dental fillings, but there are cases where people can hear even if they have nothing internally but are close to something metallic (which creates a diode)

Mr. Drakkith, sorry if I confuse you with all these quotes, but I don't know how to use the forum well. However I found the Quora link where a person, Sebastiaan Fraikin claims he can listen to radio waves both from his fillings and probably from his bed which may be rusted and creates a diode junction, however this is not what interests us, but rather the fact that the metal is far from the recipient but not internal. I recommend that you read all the Quora link responses, even that of JG McLean

Sorry, but I don't believe this. I'm going to need a reliable source for this information or I'm going to assume it's simply not true.

 

[Snoopy1234]

Sorry, but I don't believe this. I'm going to need a reliable source for this information or I'm going to assume it's simply not true.

YES mr. Drakkith https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any...d-hear-radio-transmissions-with-the-naked-ear

 

[berkeman]

YES mr. Drakkith https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any...d-hear-radio-transmissions-with-the-naked-ear

Thread is closed temporarily for Moderation. That is not a valid scientific reference for PhysicsForums.

 

[berkeman]

I'm in a PM conversation with the OP. I will try to see if there is a modification to his project proposal that is answerable so this thread can be unlocked. Stay tuned...

 

[berkeman]

Unfortunately, after the PM conversation with the OP and finally seeing the actual project proposal wording, there is no way to make this happen physically (and safely for the human receiver subject). The thread will need to stay closed. Thank you to everybody who tried to help. IMO, the OP's professors need to read this thread and send me a PM to describe how they thought this was a valid project proposal...

the exact title of the project is: "induction of a piece of music directly to the brain without the aid of any foreign device by coupling".

Hi Snoopy. Thanks for the exact project proposal statement.

Unfortunately, the other Mentors and I do not see any way that this project could work. Well, there is one way that I can think of that involves *very* high EM field strengths that would cause non-linear mixing between two different EM frequencies in the human body to generate audio frequencies, but the level of EM strength required would cause significant harm to the human subject, and we do not discuss dangerous activities here at PF. I'm sorry, but your thread will need to remain closed.