Specific volume and superheated gas

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    Gas Specific Volume
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of specific volume in relation to the refrigerant R-134a, particularly focusing on the conditions that define a gas as superheated. Participants explore the relationship between specific volume, saturation conditions, and temperature, as well as the application of steam tables and the ideal gas law.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that their specific volume value of 0.1384 m3/kg is above the saturation specific volume of 0.09, leading to confusion about why this indicates a superheated state.
  • Another participant seeks clarification on whether the saturation specific volume is indeed 0.09 and how a higher specific volume correlates with superheating.
  • A participant describes the problem statement and the process of determining the temperature of R-134a using steam tables, noting that the specific volume exceeds the saturation vapor value, which is interpreted as indicating a superheated gas.
  • One participant references the ideal gas law, explaining that specific volume is proportional to absolute temperature at a given pressure, suggesting that a higher specific volume implies a temperature above the saturation temperature, which aligns with the definition of superheated.
  • A participant expresses a need for further contemplation to fully grasp the concept, indicating the complexity of the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants appear to share a common understanding that a specific volume greater than the saturation vapor value indicates a superheated gas. However, there is ongoing confusion and a lack of clarity regarding the underlying scientific rationale, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific values from steam tables and the ideal gas law, but there is no consensus on the conceptual understanding of why increased specific volume corresponds to a superheated state. The discussion highlights the need for further exploration of definitions and relationships in thermodynamics.

LT72884
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I was assigned an example problem today and i can do the math, look at my tables and get the right answer no problem. What i want to understand, is why when specific volume increases for r134a, that it means its supper heated?

My given value for sv was .1384m3/kg which is above the .09 in the table. I get that if its above, then it means superheated. Looking at the saturation dome, i see why, but scientifically, i dont. I asked a couple of professors and i didnt understand their answer. They were trying to inform me about how the gas takes up more space... i get that, but how does taking up more space mean superheated?

Thanks
 
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Are you saying that the saturation specific volume is 0.09, but at the same pressure and a higher temperature, the specific volume is 0.1384?
 
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Here is the problem statement:
R-134a at 400psia has a specific volume of
0.1384ft3/lbm. Determine the temp of the refridgerant based on the gerealized compresabilty chart, ideal gas law, and the steam tables.

The professor was doing this problem step by step:

Ok, so i answered all 3 parts correctly, but on part (c) using the tables, i go to table A-12E, find 400psi and it says that at pressure, the satliq is 0.017 and satvap is 0.096. The value given to me is 0.1384 which is above the 0.09. My professor said since its above that satvap number, it means its a superheated gas. So use those tables to find temp, which yields 240F or 700R

What I am confused about is how does a larger specific volume, such as the 0.01384, mean that its a superheated gas?

Thanks
 
LT72884 said:
Here is the problem statement:
R-134a at 400psia has a specific volume of
0.1384ft3/lbm. Determine the temp of the refridgerant based on the gerealized compresabilty chart, ideal gas law, and the steam tables.

The professor was doing this problem step by step:

Ok, so i answered all 3 parts correctly, but on part (c) using the tables, i go to table A-12E, find 400psi and it says that at pressure, the satliq is 0.017 and satvap is 0.096. The value given to me is 0.1384 which is above the 0.09. My professor said since its above that satvap number, it means its a superheated gas. So use those tables to find temp, which yields 240F or 700R

What I am confused about is how does a larger specific volume, such as the 0.01384, mean that its a superheated gas?

Thanks
At the same pressure, it has a higher specific volume than the saturated vapor. From the ideal gas law, the specific volume is given by $$v=\frac{RT}{PM}$$where M is the molecular weight. So, according to this, at a given pressure, the specific volume is proportional to the absolute temperature. That means that, in your case, the temperature must be above the saturation temperature. This is the definition of superheated.
 
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Hmm, ill have to do some more thinking to understand it better haha. Its all new to me

Thanks much:)
 

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