Speed of light is measured by all observers

[kurious]

Constancy of the speed of light.

Let’s suppose that a photon is moving slightly faster than c metres per second.
It emits a graviton which is also an EM wave and this is absorbed by a stationary particle with rest mass.
However because the graviton was emitted from a photon moving faster than usual
the graviton wave is blueshifted by the Doppler effect more than usual.So when it is absorbed it causes the particle to emit a graviton with a higher frequency than normal too.The photon absorbs this graviton and the ratio of E/ B gets smaller so that the photon moves at c metres per second.The graviton is not subject to Lorentz invariance
but it seems to be just because it moves so fast, 10^20 metres per second, that particle speeds which reach the speed of light at the most, are virtually the same relative to the graviton however they are measured.A photon moving slightly slower than c emits Doppler redshifted gravitons and these result in the particle emitting a redshifted graviton which causes E/B in the photon to increase.
The way to form an equation for this discussion is to consider momentum conservation for the particle graviton photon interaction.I'll give it a try sometime.

 

[2clockdude]

[russ_watters asked:]
Lets try a different approach, 2clockdude - you tell us
how to measure the speed of light without running into
clock synchronization issues that make the outcome a
foregone conclusion.

[2clockdude replies:]
Well, you need to clue in Tom Mattson because he sees no
problems with either SR's clock synchronization or with
the results thereof. (All of which, as you said, are merely
man-given foregone conclusions, including light's one-way
speed invariance and the SR transformation equations.)

As for your highly relevant question, here is the answer:

One need not quantify the relative speeds of one's
clock-starting entities; all one needs to do is to
simply ascertain their equality; therefore, one can
absolutely synchronize two clocks by simply using a
third (operating or running) clock to time the two
clock-starting entities speeds in order to confirm
their equality. This is known as a qualitative
comparison because neither entity's speed is actually
measured. (By analogy, I need not know the actual
lengths of two sticks in order to confirm that they
are either equally long or not. This can be done very
easily via a side-by-side comparison.)

(I hope that my description was deliberately vague enough
to protect my proprietary interest.)

Thanks for the question!

 

[2clockdude]

[Tom Mattson noted:]
Einstein's definitions do not affect the outcome of experiments,
which is what I was saying in the quote above.

[2clockdude replies:]
I know what you were saying, and (as even 'russ_watters' openly
stated), Einstein's definition of clock synchronization yields
merely foregone conclusions (which of course have no place in
science, either theoretical or experimental).

[Tom Mattson noted:]
Since neither Taylor nor Wheeler have any doubts about relativity,
I'm sure I don't know what parrt you are referring to. Would you
mind pointing me to the section that you believe de-bunks relativity?

[2clockdude replies:]
You misread me; at no point did I even hint that the Taylor/Wheeler
'team' had 'de-bunked' SR; what I did say was that they had presented
an excellent description of Einstein's clock synchronization process,
a description which clearly shows the circularity involved. In other
words, Wheeler shows exactly how Einstein's clocks are merely forced
by man to obtain one-way light speed invariance. (Here is why this
is circular: If I force clocks to obtain one-way invariance, then,
by George, they will most certainly obtain it!)

[I can't afford their latest edition. I have the 1966 version, and
in it, said description starts on page 18 of the section entitled
"The Geometry of Spacetime."]

[Tom Mattson noted:]
Actually, the one-way speed of light has been measured, with decaying
pions, just as I said. See T. Alvager et al., Physics Letters 12, 260
(10/1/64).

[2clockdude responds:]
Nope, that was merely a source-independency test.
[See http://www.weburbia.demon.co.uk/physics/experiments.html --
Section VII.]

[2clockdude continues:]
As both I and 'russ_watters' know, the critical goal is two
correctly (or absolutely) synchronous clocks, and we can be
sure that Einstein failed to find such things because he
admitted that he could not determine absolute simultaneity.

 

[mee]

Relativity

They are a reality, but like velocity, you can only measure it in relation to someone else. To date, there is no evidence of this "something" causing the motion of matter to slow. It is certainly possible, but without any evidence, it can't be assumed or even theorized. And it works perfectly well to use the current explanation: that time itself is slowing.

All of the laws of the universe 'just are' - either that or they were made by God for a reason only he knows. Either way, you do have to live with that answer.

Why does the time on the planet left not appear to slow from the spaceship as it is accelerating at great speed away from the spaceship, relative to the spaceships perception. I mean, could traveling at close to light speed also be viewed as slowing down the spaceship more and more so that the rest of the universe, traveling at close to light speed, rapidly moves in relation to the now practically "still" spaceship.

 

[DrChinese]

I don't care about getting them published. Besides the world is probably not ready for my ideas and would most likely reject them due to their ignorance.

1. You are afraid someone else will steal your ideas and publish them as their own;
2. But you don't care about publishing them yourself;
3. And society is too stupid to appreciate them even if they were published.

Do I detect an inconsistency here?

By my count, protonman would rate an 85 on the Baez crackpot index from his statements on this thread. But please, don't assume I am calling protonman a crackpot. Or that you know what my motives are, or anything about my educational background...

 

[DrChinese]

[2clockdude replies:]
I know what you were saying, and (as even 'russ_watters' openly
stated), Einstein's definition of clock synchronization yields
merely foregone conclusions (which of course have no place in
science, either theoretical or experimental).

[2clockdude continues:]
As both I and 'russ_watters' know, the critical goal is two
correctly (or absolutely) synchronous clocks, and we can be
sure that Einstein failed to find such things because he
admitted that he could not determine absolute simultaneity.

What do you think the significance of this is? It is basically of no import and arguing over semantics.

So what if absolute simultaneity cannot be determined? You still have the situation in which all "imperfect" measurements of the speed of light yield c. That doesn't happen for electrons, marbles, or other matter.

Hmmm. Maybe SR is useful after all, and not the definitional self-deception of stubborn scientists. Utility is derived from a good theory, and SR fits the bill. While you lament the foregone conclusion of the results of experiments, others are using SR every day. Got anything better? That would be a great way to convince just about anyone.

 

[quantumdude]

[Tom Mattson noted:]
[2clockdude replies:]
I know what you were saying, and (as even 'russ_watters' openly
stated), Einstein's definition of clock synchronization yields
merely foregone conclusions

No, it doesn't. Synchronizing the clocks in the way prescribed by Einstein merely forces clocks in the same inertial frame to tick at the same rate. This is required to be consistent with the relativity postulate (not the speed of light postulate).

[2clockdude replies:]
You misread me; at no point did I even hint that the Taylor/Wheeler
'team' had 'de-bunked' SR; what I did say was that they had presented
an excellent description of Einstein's clock synchronization process,
a description which clearly shows the circularity involved. In other
words, Wheeler shows exactly how Einstein's clocks are merely forced
by man to obtain one-way light speed invariance. (Here is why this
is circular: If I force clocks to obtain one-way invariance, then,
by George, they will most certainly obtain it!)

Uh-huh, so in other words you hinted that Taylor and Wheeler debunked SR.

[I can't afford their latest edition. I have the 1966 version, and
in it, said description starts on page 18 of the section entitled
"The Geometry of Spacetime."]

There is no such section in the second edition. But I did look up all the entries of "synchronization" up in the index, and they all say the same thing: that properly synchronized clocks tick at the same rate in the rest frame of the clocks. No surprises there.

[Tom Mattson noted:]
Actually, the one-way speed of light has been measured, with decaying
pions, just as I said. See T. Alvager et al., Physics Letters 12, 260
(10/1/64).

[2clockdude responds:]
Nope, that was merely a source-independency test.
[See http://www.weburbia.demon.co.uk/physics/experiments.html --
Section VII.]

That's the same thing, silly.

[2clockdude continues:]
As both I and 'russ_watters' know, the critical goal is two
correctly (or absolutely) synchronous clocks, and we can be
sure that Einstein failed to find such things because he
admitted that he could not determine absolute simultaneity.

Einstein failed to find a pair of clocks that are synchronized in every frame, because such a pair of clocks doesn't exist in reality: Simultaneity is relative.
[/quote]