Measurement of the Speed of light

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the measurement of the speed of light (c), exploring whether it pertains to photons, waves, or other manifestations of light. Participants examine the implications of photons potentially having mass and how this affects the definition and measurement of light speed.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the speed of light measurement refers to photons, waves, or another manifestation of light.
  • One participant asserts that measuring the speed of light involves measuring light itself, suggesting that the distinctions made are merely linguistic.
  • Another participant proposes that if photons have mass, they would not travel at the speed of light, and this would imply that c is an upper speed limit rather than the actual speed of light.
  • It is noted that if photons were not massless, the speed of light in vacuum would not be invariant, and terminology might need to change to reflect this distinction.
  • Some theories are mentioned that allow for the possibility of photons having a small rest mass, which could lead to their decay into lighter particles.
  • One participant emphasizes that the definition of c can vary based on whether it is considered the fastest possible speed or specifically the speed of light, but current observations suggest they are equivalent.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of light and the implications of photon mass, indicating that multiple competing perspectives remain without a clear consensus.

Contextual Notes

Some claims depend on definitions of speed and mass, and there are unresolved implications regarding the nature of light and its measurement.

sqljunkey
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Hi,

What is people measuring when they measure the speed of light (c) actually? the photons or the waves? or some kind of manifestation of light?

I ask because I was reading about photons and that they "might" have a very small mass and therefore are not traveling at c. If photons have a mass, and are traveling slower than c what exactly is being measured when they measure the speed of light?

Thanks
 
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sqljunkey said:
What is people measuring when they measure the speed of light (c) actually? the photons or the waves? or some kind of manifestation of light?

They're measuring light. The different things you mention are not different possible things they could be measuring; they're just different ways of describing light in ordinary language.

sqljunkey said:
I was reading about photons

Please give a specific reference.

sqljunkey said:
they "might" have a very small mass and therefore are not traveling at c.

This is logically possible in the sense that you can write down a self-consistent theory of light in which photons have a nonzero mass; however, all experiments have shown that photons have zero mass.
 
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If the photon is not a strictly massless particle, it would not move at the exact speed of light, c in vacuum. Its speed would be lower and depend on its frequency. Relativity would be unaffected by this; the so-called speed of light, c, would then not be the actual speed at which light moves, but a constant of nature which is the upper bound on speed that any object could theoretically attain in space-time.[29] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon#Experimental_checks_on_photon_mass

and also

But some theories allow photons to have a small rest mass and one consequence of that would be that photons could then decay into lighter elementary particles. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2013/jul/24/what-is-the-lifetime-of-a-photon
 
sqljunkey said:
If the photon is not a strictly massless particle, it would not move at the exact speed of light, c in vacuum.

This is more correctly phrased as: if the photon were not a strictly massless particle, then the speed of light in vacuum would not be precisely equal to the invariant speed--the speed which is the same in all reference frames. The speed of light in vacuum would instead be variable, always lower than the invariant speed, but it would be possible in principle (though not necessarily likely in practice) to find a reference frame in which a photon was at rest.

In other words, our usual terminology, which refers to the invariant speed as "the speed of light", assumes that photons are massless; if that assumption were to turn out to be wrong, the correct response would be to change our usual terminology, so that it would draw a clear distinction between the speed of light and the invariant speed.

sqljunkey said:
some theories allow photons to have a small rest mass and one consequence of that would be that photons could then decay into lighter elementary particles

If there were any.
 
sqljunkey said:
What is people measuring when they measure the speed of light (c) actually? the photons or the waves? or some kind of manifestation of light?

They are measuring the speed of a beam of light. That beam can be modeled as either a stream of photons or a wave.

I ask because I was reading about photons and that they "might" have a very small mass and therefore are not traveling at c.

That depends on your definition of ##c##. You either define it as the fastest possible speed or your define it as the speed of light. Right now we don't need to make that distinction because all observations and experimental results indicate that those two speeds are the same.
 

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