Spivak & Dimension of Manifold

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around a question from Spivak's Differential Geometry regarding the dimensionality of manifolds. The original poster seeks to demonstrate that if a point \( x \) in a manifold \( M \) has neighborhoods homeomorphic to \( \mathbb{R}^n \), then \( n \) is consistent across all such neighborhoods. This is linked to proving that neighborhoods homeomorphic to \( \mathbb{R}^n \) must be open, utilizing the Invariance of Domain.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Assumption checking, Conceptual clarification

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to use the Invariance of Domain to argue that if two neighborhoods are homeomorphic to different dimensions, a contradiction arises. Some participants question the validity of certain statements made in the proof and offer clarifications regarding the nature of subsets in different topological spaces.

Discussion Status

Participants are actively engaging with the original poster's reasoning, providing feedback on specific statements and clarifying misunderstandings. There is a recognition of the need to refine certain arguments, but no consensus has been reached on the overall proof structure.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express uncertainty about the original poster's confidence in their proof, indicating a potential gap in understanding topology. There are discussions about the implications of closed sets in different dimensions, which may affect the interpretation of the proof.

NihilTico
Messages
32
Reaction score
2

1. Homework Statement

I'm taking a swing at Spivak's Differential Geometry, and a question that Spivak asks his reader to show is that if ##x\in M## for ##M## a manifold and there is a neighborhood (Note that Spivak requires neighborhoods to be sets which contain an open set containing the point of interest) of ##x## such that this neighborhood is homeomorphic to ##\mathbb{R}^n##, then this ##n## is fixed for any other such neighborhood of ##x##.

If I could prove this, then I could prove his other assertion that if ##U\subseteq M## is a neighborhood of some ##x\in M##, and is homeomorphic to ##\mathbb{R}^n## (for any ##n##), then ##U## must be open; via the Invariance of Domain, the proof follows almost immediately from what I'm proving here.
2. The attempt at a solution

I'm a little far removed from topology so I'm not entirely confident in my proof. In particular, when I tried to find some sort of verification online, I found this which doesn't look anything like my argument.

I more or less mimic my proof that ##\mathbb{R}^n## is not homeomorphic to ##\mathbb{R}^m## if ##n\ne m## by the invariance of domain in my proof:Spivak has shown that one can choose, for any neighborhood ##U## of ##x\in M##, a subset ##V\subseteq U## such that ##V## is open with respect to the topology of ##M## and homeomorphic to the same ##\mathbb{R}^n## as ##U##. This is straight-forward.

So if I let ##x\in M##, and ##N_1##, ##N_2## be two neighborhoods of ##x## homeomorphic, respectively, to ##\mathbb{R}^n## and ##\mathbb{R}^m##. Let's denote by ##f\colon N_1\to\mathbb{R}^n## and ##g\colon N_{2}\to\mathbb{R}^m## the homeomorphisms. WLOG we can assume ##n<m##, attempting to obtain a contradiction.

I can widdle ##N_1## and ##N_2## down into subsets ##V_1## and ##V_2## open in ##M## as I noted above. Let ##V=V_1\cap V_2##. Then, of course, ##V\subseteq N_{1}## and ##V\subseteq N_2##; moreover ##V## is still open in ##M##. Since ##g## and ##f## are homeomorphisms, the image of ##V## is open in ##\mathbb{R}^n## under ##f## and the image of ##V## under ##g## is open in ##\mathbb{R}^m##. Denote by ##\pi## the embedding of ##\mathbb{R}^n## into ##\mathbb{R}^m##. Then the map ##h:=\pi\circ f\circ g^{-1}## passes ##g(V)## to ##f(V)\subseteq\mathbb{R}^n## viewed as a subset of ##\mathbb{R}^m##. But in the metric topology of ##\mathbb{R}^m## (where, again, ##n<m##), any subset of ##\mathbb{R}^n## is closed. So this contradicts the invariance of domain, since ##h## defines a continuous injection of an open subset of ##\mathbb{R}^m## into ##\mathbb{R}^m##.

Does this look alright? Any pointers?
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
NihilTico said:

Homework Statement


I'm taking a swing at Spivak's Differential Geometry, and a question that Spivak asks his reader to show is that if ##x\in M## for ##M## a manifold and there is a neighborhood (Note that Spivak requires neighborhoods to be sets which contain an open set containing the point of interest) of ##x## such that this neighborhood is homeomorphic to ##\mathbb{R}^n##, then this ##n## is fixed for any other such neighborhood of ##x##.

If I could prove this, then I could prove his other assertion that if ##U\subseteq M## is a neighborhood of some ##x\in M##, and is homeomorphic to ##\mathbb{R}^n## (for any ##n##), then ##U## must be open; via the Invariance of Domain, the proof follows almost immediately from what I'm proving here.
2. The attempt at a solution

I'm a little far removed from topology so I'm not entirely confident in my proof. In particular, when I tried to find some sort of verification online, I found this which doesn't look anything like my argument.

I more or less mimic my proof that ##\mathbb{R}^n## is not homeomorphic to ##\mathbb{R}^m## if ##n\ne m## by the invariance of domain in my proof:Spivak has shown that one can choose, for any neighborhood ##U## of ##x\in M##, a subset ##V\subseteq U## such that ##V## is open with respect to the topology of ##M## and homeomorphic to the same ##\mathbb{R}^n## as ##U##. This is straight-forward.

So if I let ##x\in M##, and ##N_1##, ##N_2## be two neighborhoods of ##x## homeomorphic, respectively, to ##\mathbb{R}^n## and ##\mathbb{R}^m##. Let's denote by ##f\colon N_1\to\mathbb{R}^n## and ##g\colon N_{2}\to\mathbb{R}^m## the homeomorphisms. WLOG we can assume ##n<m##, attempting to obtain a contradiction.

I can widdle ##N_1## and ##N_2## down into subsets ##V_1## and ##V_2## open in ##M## as I noted above. Let ##V=V_1\cap V_2##. Then, of course, ##V\subseteq N_{1}## and ##V\subseteq N_2##; moreover ##V## is still open in ##M##. Since ##g## and ##f## are homeomorphisms, the image of ##V## is open in ##\mathbb{R}^n## under ##f## and the image of ##V## under ##g## is open in ##\mathbb{R}^m##. Denote by ##\pi## the embedding of ##\mathbb{R}^n## into ##\mathbb{R}^m##. Then the map ##h:=\pi\circ f\circ g^{-1}## passes ##g(V)## to ##f(V)\subseteq\mathbb{R}^n## viewed as a subset of ##\mathbb{R}^m##. But in the metric topology of ##\mathbb{R}^m## (where, again, ##n<m##), any subset of ##\mathbb{R}^n## is closed. So this contradicts the invariance of domain, since ##h## defines a continuous injection of an open subset of ##\mathbb{R}^m## into ##\mathbb{R}^m##.

Does this look alright? Any pointers?
(color added)
I don't know where the statement I colored in red comes from. I think it is wrong.
Remove it, and your proof looks correct, as ##f(V) \subseteq\mathbb R^n## and ##g(V) \subseteq \mathbb R^m## would be homeomorphic non-empty open sets, and that is not possible if
##m \neq n##.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: NihilTico
Samy_A said:
I don't know where the statement I colored in red comes from. I think it is wrong.
By "subset of ##\mathbb R^n##", I assume that he means "subset of ##\{x\in\mathbb R^m|x_{n+1}=x_{n+2}=\cdots =x_m=0\}##". This set is closed because the limit of a convergent sequence in that set is in that set.
 
Fredrik said:
By "subset of ##\mathbb R^n##", I assume that he means "subset of ##\{x\in\mathbb R^m|x_{n+1}=x_{n+2}=\cdots =x_m=0\}##". This set is closed because the limit of a convergent sequence in that set is in that set.

In that interpretation, it's not wrong that ##\mathbb{R}^n## is closed in ##\mathbb{R}^m##. But it is definitely not true in that interpretation that any subset of ##\mathbb{R}^n## is closed in ##\mathbb{R}^m##.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: NihilTico
Fredrik said:
By "subset of ##\mathbb R^n##", I assume that he means "subset of ##\{x\in\mathbb R^m|x_{n+1}=x_{n+2}=\cdots =x_m=0\}##". This set is closed because the limit of a convergent sequence in that set is in that set.
micromass said:
In that interpretation, it's not wrong that ##\mathbb{R}^n## is closed in ##\mathbb{R}^m##. But it is definitely not true in that interpretation that any subset of ##\mathbb{R}^n## is closed in ##\mathbb{R}^m##.
Thought so too.
If by "any subset" he meant "any closed subset" (in the ##\mathbb R^n## topology), then I agree.

Anyway, it is a red herring, as he doesn't really use the statement.
 
micromass said:
In that interpretation, it's not wrong that ##\mathbb{R}^n## is closed in ##\mathbb{R}^m##. But it is definitely not true in that interpretation that any subset of ##\mathbb{R}^n## is closed in ##\mathbb{R}^m##.
Ah, of course. Didn't really think about that part. Thanks.
 
Hey all, thanks for the replies and comments and I apologize for getting back a little late.

Not really sure why I threw that statement in there, there are plenty of counter-examples.

I appreciate the help, thanks!
 

Similar threads

Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 58 ·
2
Replies
58
Views
5K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
9K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
4K