Spring pendulum, Kinetic Energy

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the kinetic energy of a spring pendulum, exploring the derivation of kinetic energy expressions and the components involved in the motion. Participants examine the relationship between the traveled distance, angular motion, and the contributions of radial and angular components to the total kinetic energy.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the derivation of kinetic energy, suggesting that the traveled distance is equal to (l + x(t))*θ and proposes a method involving time derivatives.
  • Another participant challenges the initial claim, stating that the traveled distance depends on the trajectory and emphasizes the need for a position vector to obtain a meaningful derivative.
  • A different perspective is introduced, highlighting the importance of considering the radial component of motion, indicating that the total kinetic energy includes contributions from both radial and angular directions.
  • A participant presents a formulation in polar coordinates, providing equations for kinetic energy and potential energy, and specifies the relationship between the radius and the spring's length.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the correct approach to deriving kinetic energy, with no consensus reached on the methodology or the resulting expressions.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not fully resolved the assumptions regarding the trajectory and the definitions of the components involved in the kinetic energy calculations.

KEVmathematics
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In the included picture, I don't get how they get to the kinetic energy part. I would say, that the traveled distance is equal to (l + x(t))*θ. Then I would take the time derivative, resulting in dx(t)/dt * θ + (l + x(t))* dθ/dt. Then I would square this result and multiply that with 1/2 m. But then I would get a totally different kinetic energy.
 

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KEVmathematics said:
I would say, that the traveled distance is equal to (l + x(t))*θ
What does that mean? The traveled distance depends on the trajectory. You'll need a position (as vector) to get a meaningful derivative.
 
You must also consider the radial component. The velocity component in the radial direction is the time derivative of x(t) (since it is a spring, it can compress or expand). Hence the total kinetic energy is the sum of energies in both radial and angular directions.
 
In polar coordinates, with the polar angle relative to the direction poiinting downwards, you have
$$\vec{x}=r \begin{pmatrix}
\sin \varphi \\ \cos \varphi
\end{pmatrix}.$$
Then, after straight-forward algebra, you have
$$T=\frac{m}{2} \dot{\vec{x}}^2=\frac{m}{2} (\dot{r}^2+r^2 \dot{\varphi}^2).$$
Now in the textbook, they set
$$r=l+x,$$
where ##l## is the length of the relaxed spring.

For the potential energy you have the part from the gravitational field of the Earth and the spring:
$$V=-m g x_2+\frac{k}{2} x^2 = -m g (x+l) \cos \varphi+\frac{k}{2} x^2.$$
 

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