Swept wings, Mcr and Span-wise flow

  • Thread starter Thread starter PA32
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Flow Wings
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the effects of swept wings on transonic flow, specifically regarding the onset of Critical Mach number and the implications of spanwise flow. Participants explore the aerodynamic characteristics of swept wings, including boundary layer behavior and transition to turbulence, as well as design strategies to mitigate negative effects.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants explain that swept wings allow for a higher free-stream velocity before reaching sonic speed due to the angle of attack affecting the chordwise component of velocity.
  • There is a discussion about the dual nature of spanwise flow, which can both raise the critical Mach number and lead to boundary-layer breakdown and turbulence transition.
  • Inflection points in boundary layer profiles are described as points where curvature changes sign, which can contribute to instabilities in swept-wing aircraft.
  • Wing fences are mentioned as a method to reduce spanwise flow and stall speed, though their use in modern aircraft is questioned.
  • Winglets are discussed as a means to decrease drag and improve lift by managing wingtip vortices.
  • Some participants note that swept wings are prone to tip stall due to thicker boundary layers near the tips and propose that wing twist is used to address this issue.
  • There are claims that roughness elements can be used to control transition by triggering instabilities that prevent the growth of cross-flow instabilities, though practical application in flight remains challenging.
  • One participant mentions ongoing research into the effectiveness of discrete roughness elements (DREs) and the difficulties in applying this technique in real flight conditions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the effects of spanwise flow and the effectiveness of various design strategies, indicating that multiple competing perspectives exist without a clear consensus.

Contextual Notes

Discussions include limitations related to the application of roughness elements in flight, the dependency on specific conditions such as angle of attack, and the challenges of translating wind tunnel results to real-world scenarios.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to aerospace engineers, pilots, and students studying aerodynamics, particularly those looking to understand the complexities of swept-wing design and its implications for aircraft performance.

PA32
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
I've been reading a bit about transonic flow and wondering if I could get a bit more info here. Exactly how do swept wings delay the on-set of Critical Mach? Is "span-wise" flow "bad", and if so, why, and how are the bad effects mitigated on current generation jet aircraft? Thanks!
 
Physics news on Phys.org
With a swept wing, you have the same free-stream velocity encountering the wing at an angle. That means only one component of the velocity (the chordwise component) is accelerated, and that component is initially slower than on a corresponding straight wing due to the angle. That would mean that the wing can encounter a higher free stream velocity (and therefore Mach number) before it is accelerated to sonic speed at some point on the wing.

Spanwise flow is both good and bad. As previously stated, it can help raise the critical Mach number, but it can also lead to boundary-layer breakdown and transition to turbulence. On a swept wing (or anybody with a pressure gradient that isn't aligned with the free stream) you end up with a the spanwise acceleration of the boundary layer. The resulting 3-D boundary layer develops inflection points which lead to very strong instabilities and becomes the dominant mode of laminar-turbulent transition on most swept-wing aircraft. Right now, this effect can't be mitigated, and aircraft designers just have to live with it and the associated drag penalties in order to reap the benefits of the swept wing. Controlling transition on any wing is one of the holy grails of aerodynamics.
 
Thank you Boneh3ad. Could you elaborate a bit on the following: What is (are) inflection points? Are wing fences and winglets meant to mitigate the "bad" effects of span-wise flow? Or do they do something else?

I am a pilot who is very interested in aerodynamics, but my math abilities do not go beyond algebra. Can you recommend any textbooks or web references that go into greater depth on aerodynamics, but do not require math beyond algebra?
 
When I talk about an inflection point, I mean if you plotted the boundary layer profile it would have an inflection point in the plot. An inflection point is a point where the curvature changes sign.

Wing fences are used to try and cut down on spanwise flow for the purpose of decreasing the stall speed. I don't think any modern aircraft really use them, however.

Winglets are used to decrease drag and increase lift on the wing created by the wingtip vortices by moving them from the edge of the wing to the tip of the winglet. This gets the vortices out of the way of the flow over the wing, allowing the flow near the wing tip to continue unimpeded over the surface and generate lift as it is supposed to.

PA32 said:
I am a pilot who is very interested in aerodynamics, but my math abilities do not go beyond algebra. Can you recommend any textbooks or web references that go into greater depth on aerodynamics, but do not require math beyond algebra?

Not that I know of. Aerodynamics really requires a basic understanding of differential calculus even at the lower levels. Without that, you would likely be able to look at some of the empirical relations and simplified formulas and get a superficial idea of some of the relationships in aerodynamics, but you would be missing the physics behind it.

At any rate, a good starting point would be "Fundamentals of Aerodynamics" by Anderson. It does require calculus but many universities do use it for their introductory aerodynamics course. Maybe someone else knows of a more basic text, but I don't.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0073398101/?tag=pfamazon01-20
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks!
 
"Introduction to Flight" by the same author is the lower level textbook. Used that one for the sophomore level course (taught by the author) and the aerodynamics textbook for Junior year.

I'd hyperlink it for you, but I'm on my phone.
 
In addition to the things mentioned above, spanwise flow results in a thicker boundary layer near the tip of the wing. The opposite is true near the root, where the spanwise flow essentially acts as boundary layer suction creating a thinner boundary layer near the root. The net result is that swept wings are very susceptible to tip stall which is highly undesirable from a stability standpoint. This is why many swept wings have have large amounts of twist (the tip is at a lower geometric angle of attack) because it is important for the root to stall first.


boneh3ad said:
The resulting 3-D boundary layer develops inflection points which lead to very strong instabilities and becomes the dominant mode of laminar-turbulent transition on most swept-wing aircraft. Right now, this effect can't be mitigated, and aircraft designers just have to live with it and the associated drag penalties in order to reap the benefits of the swept wing. Controlling transition on any wing is one of the holy grails of aerodynamics.

Actually there are ways to control/delay the transition due to cross-flow instabilities on a swept wing. And ironically it is done by distributing roughness along the leading-edge of the wing. The idea is that instabilities are triggered in the wake of the roughness elements and the height of the roughness elements is chosen so that the instabilities that are triggered will decay without leading to transition. The key is that these instabilities (from the roughness) rob energy from the cross-flow instabilities preventing them from growing so that transition can actually be delayed past where it would occur on a smooth surface.
 
RandomGuy88 said:
Actually there are ways to control/delay the transition due to cross-flow instabilities on a swept wing. And ironically it is done by distributing roughness along the leading-edge of the wing. The idea is that instabilities are triggered in the wake of the roughness elements and the height of the roughness elements is chosen so that the instabilities that are triggered will decay without leading to transition. The key is that these instabilities (from the roughness) rob energy from the cross-flow instabilities preventing them from growing so that transition can actually be delayed past where it would occur on a smooth surface.

I am highly aware of this fact. Search a little more on this topic and figure out who came up with this idea, more commonly known as spanwise-periodic discrete roughness elements, or DREs. You will find it happens to be a guy by the name of William Saric, who just happens to be my graduate advisor. :wink:

The problem is, they have demonstrated this technique in low-disturbance wind tunnels very successfully with a permanent applique set of DREs, but has been much less successful in flight where the free stream turbulence is much lower. Even the low-disturbance wind tunnel in which many of these experiments were carried out still had a free stream turbulence level around Tu ~ 0.02%, which is incredibly low for a tunnel but still higher than flight. Additionally, the successful tests have been done an Reynolds numbers that are quite a bit lower than a commercial airliner.

The final hurdle is the fact that you don't always want to have the DREs permanently located in a single location. They work best (and almost exclusively) if you place them at the first neutral point. Too far from there and they no longer affect the transition. In other words, they only work for a single angle of attack. The trick is finding a way to make them adjustable so that you can move their chord position and change their spacing so that you can create different effects in different flight regimes. Sometimes you don't want them at all such as during climb or when close to stall.

In other words, DREs are still quite a way from being a practical transition control mechanism. We are working on a few things right now to solve some of these issues but have had mixed results so far, even in the wind tunnel.
 
boneh3ad said:
I am highly aware of this fact. Search a little more on this topic and figure out who came up with this idea, more commonly known as spanwise-periodic discrete roughness elements, or DREs. You will find it happens to be a guy by the name of William Saric, who just happens to be my graduate advisor. :wink:

Very cool. Is this what your research is on? Its not related to my research, I just saw a paper about it once and thought it seemed interesting.

boneh3ad said:
In other words, they only work for a single angle of attack.

Unfortunately this is common problem with a lot of passive flow control techniques. :frown:
 
  • #10
Part of my research is a new idea for how to implement DREs so they are adjustable. Part of my research is moving that same idea into the hypersonic regime, and part of it is using similar techniques just to look at second-mode growth in a hypersonic boundary layer. It seems kind of scattered about, but it sort of makes sense (as much as anything along the path to a PhD I suppose). To be honest, I am more excited by the more fundamental aspects rather than just trying to make DREs work, but the DREs are a lot more applicable to air travel if we can get it working.
 

Similar threads

Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
14K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
9K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 30 ·
2
Replies
30
Views
5K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
10K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
4K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
5K