Tchebysheff proof, help understanding transition to last step

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding the transition to the last step in a proof related to Tchebysheff's inequality. Participants explore algebraic manipulations, the implications of strict versus weak inequalities, and the logical foundations of the proof. The scope includes mathematical reasoning and conceptual clarification.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants present algebraic manipulations involving inequalities, suggesting that the result holds with strict equality under certain conditions.
  • Others argue that the transition from strict to weak inequality is necessary to account for the proportion of elements in a set, raising questions about the completeness of the original proof.
  • A participant questions the implications of using specific values for |A| and n, suggesting that the cardinality of A is a natural number and exploring the equality under certain assumptions.
  • There is a discussion about the logical implications of assuming a premise in proofs, referencing a logical principle that allows for conclusions based on assumed truths.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about the correctness of the proof, suggesting it could be more definitive, while not asserting that it is wrong.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus; multiple competing views remain regarding the use of strict versus weak inequalities and the implications of the proof's logic.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include unresolved assumptions about the values of n and |A|, as well as the implications of switching between strict and weak inequalities in the context of the proof.

el_llavero
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proof attached as pdf in link provided
 

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Using A for |A| and kk for k squared:

1 > Akk/n
1 < n/(Akk)
A < n/kk
A/n < 1/kk
1 - A/n > 1 - 1/kk

So the stated result actually holds with strict equality.
 
I actually got some help with the algebraic manipulation, which was clouding my conceptual understanding, after looking at this more I realized what it all meant and why the use of >= instead of > at the end


Divide by k^2 results in 1/(k^2)>|A|/n

multiply both sides by -1 (fips inequality) and add 1 to both sides results in 1- 1/k^2 < 1-|A|/n

change from strict inequality to weak inequality to account for proportion of all elements "~A" INTERSECTION "B" results in
1- 1/k^2 <= 1-|A|/n
 
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EnumaElish said:
Using A for |A| and kk for k squared:

1 > Akk/n
1 < n/(Akk)
A < n/kk
A/n < 1/kk
1 - A/n > 1 - 1/kk

So the stated result actually holds with strict equality.

But the only way 1 - A/n > 1 - 1/kk describes the proportion of measurements in B, i.e. ~A, is to switch to weak inequalitysince strict inquality leaves out part of B, t/f weak inequality is required.

What do you think?
 
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|A| is a real number, like 2.

If 2/n < 1/kk then 1 - 2/n > 1 - 1/kk. Not so?
 
EnumaElish said:
|A| is a real number, like 2.

If 2/n < 1/kk then 1 - 2/n > 1 - 1/kk. Not so?

the cardinality of A, i.e. |A|, is a natural number, an integer in the set {0,1,2,3,...}

if |A|=1, and k =1 and n = 1 then the equations are equal. that's assuming that there is no restriction on n being equal to 1 and card(A) being equal to 1.
 
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Of course, if the premise were 2/n < 1/kk then 1 - 2/n > 1 - 1/kk would be the case. But the premise is stated with strict inequality.
 
yes you're right. So the use of weak inequality may have something to do with describing the complement of A?
 
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Or what they meant was 2/(n-1) < 1/kk, then they replaced n-1 with n but forgot to change < to <.
 
  • #10
Perhaps that's the case, because the strict inequality was used to derive the last line. Moreover, perhaps my set element argument was more of a way to try and rationalize the use of the weak inequality. I'm going to try and get a response from the author of this proof, and see what he says. Thanks for your responses EnumaElish.
 
  • #11
I corresponded with a professor from a previous class about this and he reminded me about the use of logic in proofs

If you assume p is true then you may also conclude that ( p OR q) is true, no matter what q is! q doesn't ever have to be true since we've assumed p is. It's a fact in logic referred to as (addition or generalization).

p is LHS > RHS, and q is LHS = RHS.
 
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  • #12
I am not saying the proof is wrong; I am saying it can be more definitive.
 
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