The correct usage of self driving cars in SF

[Ryan_m_b]

As far as I'm aware none of the current self driving car projects are designed to accept updates to their software wirelessly. A terrorist uploading a crash virus to ten million cars at once won't be physically possible if the cars aren't built to work like that.

Anyone got any references to google or other companies addressing this issue?

EDIT: to clarify I'm talking about remote hacking of mass numbers of cars. There have been tests showing that with laser pointers the LIDAR sensors on current self driving cars can be tricked but that's not the same. If you can only harm one car at a time and it requires line of sight the risk is no greater than cars now. A malicious person could shine a laser into the eyes of a driver and have the same effect.

 

[GTOM]

As far as I'm aware none of the current self driving car projects are designed to accept updates to their software wirelessly. A terrorist uploading a crash virus to ten million cars at once won't be physically possible if the cars aren't built to work like that.

Anyone got any references to google or other companies addressing this issue?

So far i only read about someone tried a jammer on robocar to warn to security issues. Of course standalone mode is much safer, but i have doubts someone won't have the great idea, that wireless mode offers so wonderful possibilites.

 

[Loren]

Safety belt isn't the best analogy, since it doesn't strip someone from control.
Of course strip drivers from control prevents a fool to run amok with a car.
On the other hand, if they happen to leave any hole in security (and such things happened) offers opportunities like a terrorist modifies safe following distance, and creates a mass accident.
(Well i supposed now, that manual override won't be simply illegal - if it isn't obligatory in emergency, but nonexistent.)

I think it will be hard to eliminate manual control.

I have numerous times where the destination has no actual GPS address. Inside parks is just one example.

I may choose to meet someone halfway at a filling station, but hell if I know the address. We just agree to get off at Route 70.

Last minute destination changes will be another issue, i.e., wife says, "Stop here!" What she means is turn here and stop at that store. Or, "I have to pee!" which translates to their will be insufficient time to reprogram navigation without unsatisfactory consequences.

 

[mfb]

I have numerous times where the destination has no actual GPS address. Inside parks is just one example.

Every point on the surface of Earth has GPS coordinates. Some points don't have a street address.
Driving off-road is certainly an application for manual control.

Last minute destination changes will be another issue, i.e., wife says, "Stop here!" What she means is turn here and stop at that store. Or, "I have to pee!" which translates to their will be insufficient time to reprogram navigation without unsatisfactory consequences.

Stopping somewhere is easier with driverless cars, you don't need a proper parking spot even when driving alone.

 

[GTOM]

Stopping somewhere is easier with driverless cars, you don't need a proper parking spot even when driving alone.

Then it runs in circles, or go to a remote parking house? If it can be called back by a phone, that enables remote control of my car.

 

[mfb]

If it can be called back by a phone, that enables remote control of my car.

Worst case: someone else can order your car to drive from a parking spot (or from going in circles) to their place. Not that dangerous, if they can steal the car they can also walk to the parking lot to do so.
Today many cars are secured with a key only. And the new, additional safety mechanism is... electronics.

 

[Algr]

Stopping somewhere is easier with driverless cars, you don't need a proper parking spot even when driving alone.

Well that's AFTER you have stopped. Imagine programming a GPS to go to "That thing we just passed," because you have no idea what it was was and want to see. You'd be miles away by the time you were done mucking with the touchscreen interface.

 

[mfb]

I don't see the problem with pointing on something on a touchscreen.

 

[GTOM]

I don't see the problem with pointing on something on a touchscreen.

The problem is matching the shop with a satellite view image. (Well if it shows a camera image and you point at it, it is intermediate between full auto and full manual.)

 

[Ryan_m_b]

There's a weird perception in this thread that an SDV either needs a complete manual override or will only accept commands by complicated sat nav. What makes you think there won't be a stop button that causes the car to pull over as soon as is safe? And touching a way point on a screen that's already zoomed to your surroundings is easy. I have navigation apps on my phone that allow me to do that in seconds.

 

[Loren]

There's a weird perception in this thread that an SDV either needs a complete manual override or will only accept commands by complicated sat nav. What makes you think there won't be a stop button that causes the car to pull over as soon as is safe? And touching a way point on a screen that's already zoomed to your surroundings is easy. I have navigation apps on my phone that allow me to do that in seconds.

I think that it will be hard to convince the transportation authorities that a vehicle will not have a form of manual override to drive the vehicle for any number of reasons.

 

[mfb]

I think that it will be hard to convince the transportation authorities that a vehicle will not have a form of manual override to drive the vehicle for any number of reasons.

I think in a few decades it will be hard to convince the authorities to allow it (on public roads).

 

[GTOM]

I think that it will be hard to convince the transportation authorities that a vehicle will not have a form of manual override to drive the vehicle for any number of reasons.

http://www.thelocal.se/20151104/solar-storm-grounds-swedish-air-traffic

Until developed electronics can be so sensitive things, manual option shouldn't be removed entirely.

 

[mfb]

Human drivers are very sensitive to fog, and we can use cars without an alternative to human drivers.
Automatic cars don't need radar.

 

[GTOM]

Human drivers are very sensitive to fog, and we can use cars without an alternative to human drivers.
Automatic cars don't need radar.

The link also said a solar storm can also affect Gps signals that is bad for nav system. It also said that households suffered blackouts so radar isn't the only thing could possibly go haywire.
I think it isn't impossible to aid a human driver with a lidar less sensitive to fog neither.
Of course there are different areas and applications. Highway long boring routine sure robocar superior. Robotaxi one already prepared to surrender control when use a taxi. City traffic, lots of possibly unexpected things can happen. I remember when i learned to drive, there was a really large hole in the asphalt, we rather went around it. Or i saw advertisement of lidar black paint to avoid plate recognition.
And there are backwater areas without address. I like to note i am not against robocars it is also ok if driving is illegal until get around hole manuever for example don't count as driving. Entirely remove human control from personal car that is something i dislike.

 

[mfb]

It also said that households suffered blackouts so radar isn't the only thing could possibly go haywire.

Right, the electricity grid can also be affected. Imagine some ironic comment here on the effect on driving cars.
GPS is necessary to determine the initial location and useful for occasional updates, but cars don't have to depend on it. They can read street signs just like a human can do.

 

[GTOM]

Right, the electricity grid can also be affected. Imagine some ironic comment here on the effect on driving cars.
GPS is necessary to determine the initial location and useful for occasional updates, but cars don't have to depend on it. They can read street signs just like a human can do.

I know the effect on a car is negligable compared to effect on long range radars and power lines, i wondered whether it is negligable on their most sensitive electronic parts?
Okay we can agree even if it were a problem it can be solved, and i also think the law someone must be in the driving seat can be erased.
The only problem i have if they want to entirely remove human ability to directly control the car.
Someone mentioned Rainbow End before, there was a scene where they wanted to reach an area, but car said no, can't stop here. Finally they solved it with a chainsaw like thing.

Reality can produce an almost infinite number of really weird things, in an unexpected situation, a program is even less able to find out something than an average human.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34754577 (Yes i know it isn't about cars, but unexpected situations.)

http://www.wired.com/2014/08/wireless-car-hack/