A The Crisis in Theoretical Physics - Gian Francesco Giudice

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The Italian physicist Gian Francesco Giudice has come out with an article about the crisis in theoretical physics. Please read the paper before commenting. Thoughts?

There are many indications that, following the recursive pattern of scientific revolutions, we are now witnessing the beginning of the phase of crisis. The lack of new physics in the initial stages of the LHC project is putting into question the logic of naturalness when applied to the Higgs; the absence of a positive detection in dark matter experiments is casting doubts about nature taking advantage of the WIMP miracle. We are not simply confronted with experimental data excluding a model or a class of models. We are confronted with the need to reconsider the guiding principles that have been used for decades to address the most fundamental questions about the physical world. These are symptoms of a phase of crisis.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1710.07663
 
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Around 1900 there was the idea around that all of fundamental physics might have been discovered (although it was not Lord Kelvin who said that) - shortly before relativity and quantum mechanics revolutionized physics.

Today we know we didn't discover everything, but we might be in a similar phase, as all particles found so far were predicted 50+ years ago already. We don't have experimental guidelines where new physics should be explored theoretically. As a symptom of this, many theorists jump on every result that is slightly away from expectations.
- OPERA doesn't understand the neutrino speed measurements? Let's invent models of tachyonic neutrinos! Many arXiv submissions, the average quality of these models was very questionable. The interest in all these things dropped to zero when OPERA found the issue with the time measurement.
- ATLAS and/or CMS see a 2 sigma fluctuation in some diboson spectrum? Let's tune the models to make a W' or Z' there! Again many models, and then the interest stopped once more data didn't have such a fluctuation.
- ATLAS and CMS see some excess in the diphoton spectrum? Let's invent all sorts of different models for it! Hundreds of arXiv submissions, all for nothing as the excess disappeared with more data.

There are many things in the Standard Model that need better understanding, and work there is ongoing. Outside of that: Yeah... a bit difficult at the moment.

There are still some weird measurements that might turn out to be actual deviations from the Standard Model, especially related to muons. We'll see.
 
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I like his comparison between the lack of experimental results now and those of Michelson and Morley. Maybe we have to accept something which now is still hard to swallow.

I think the cosmological constant could already hint to that: a deeply IR-phenomenon which in effective field theories gets UV contributions. Maybe the separation of scales (locality?) idea is not as correct as we think it is.
 
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haushofer said:
Maybe we have to accept something which now is still hard to swallow.
Maybe multiverse?
 
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Giudice's overall view is that the present state of affairs is exciting and healthy. It is very different from Hossenfelder's tone.
 
Demystifier said:
Maybe multiverse?
Or the concept of evolution of laws? Which biologists know already, but physicists insist on trying to find timeless laws in a true reductionist spirit.

Thats related to the the "fallacy" i talked about in the other thread, that is also from smolins book. This is indeed hard to swallow, probably becuase it strips us of the tools that worked so far. And its hard to swallow because this "idea" is not yet materialised into concrete ideas.I happened to be motivated because i have a vision of this, but i fully understand that without a vision, the reasons for abandoning the old principles are insufficient.
Gian Francesco Giudice said:
If this is the case, gauge symmetry is not the key that will unlock the mysteries of nature at the most fundamental
level. The concept of symmetry has given much to particle physics, but it could be that it is running out of fuel and that, in the post-naturalness era, new concepts will replace symmetry as guiding principles.
This is related to same ideas that has been the subject of many recent threads on emergence of symmetry. Which makes it interesting. You can approach this issues from different angles.

I agree that there seems to be a growing awareness of the limitations of the guiding principles that has served us well. But if we consider the scientific process we can understand WHY these tools are powerful at times, but why they seem inappropriate for cosmological models or for big theories that attempt to connect very high and low energy domains.

/Fredrik
 
Everyone is waiting for that next great breakthrough. String theory is perhaps the gedanken way of thinking taken too far and has mesmerized folks into thinking it is the one true way.

I think physics is in its heyday of experimental physics right now collecting so much cool data about the largest, smallest, farthest and highest scales that a new TOE will eventually emerge. Its just that the suspense is killing us.

It's becoming a whodonit/howdoesitwork mystery.

Where are Newton, Einstein, Maxwell, Bohr, Heisenberg, Schrodinger... when we need them now?
 
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jedishrfu said:
Everyone is waiting for that next great breakthrough. String theory is perhaps the gedanken way of thinking taken too far and has mesmerized folks into thinking it is the one true way.
That's what I thought, too. To me it always appears like: "QFT works fine with small Lie algebras. Maybe we should consider simply higher dimensions? I mean, they all can be embedded in one ##\mathfrak{sl}(n)## as long as only ##n## is large enough!" And as if this wasn't sufficiently general: "Let's grade them!" Personally I hope, that the truth is buried in their solvable subalgebras rather than the entire simple ones.

I also agree with you, that a real good idea is needed. That we failed to develop a TOE is in my opinion due to the fact, that one part is about coordinates, whereas the other part is about representations. Not easy to merge them.
 
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jedishrfu said:
I think physics is in its heyday of experimental physics right now collecting so much cool data about the largest, smallest, farthest and highest scales that a new TOE will eventually emerge. Its just that the suspense is killing us.
So we need more powerful computing and analysis methods/tools?
 
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  • #10
jedishrfu said:
Where are Newton, Einstein, Maxwell, Bohr, Heisenberg, Schrodinger... when we need them now?
With current publish-or-perish standards, some of them could not get a job today.
 
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  • #11
jedishrfu said:
Everyone is waiting for that next great breakthrough. String theory is perhaps the gedanken way of thinking taken too far and has mesmerized folks into thinking it is the one true way.

I think physics is in its heyday of experimental physics right now collecting so much cool data about the largest, smallest, farthest and highest scales that a new TOE will eventually emerge. Its just that the suspense is killing us.

It's becoming a whodonit/howdoesitwork mystery.

Where are Newton, Einstein, Maxwell, Bohr, Heisenberg, Schrodinger... when we need them now?

Did you know Steven Weinberg has written an article in the Scientific American. I think he mentioned the TOE would arrive about 2050 (I'll search the article tomorrow). So it's only 33 more years to go... Remember we have waited for 50 years patiently (I got this from Bee " Without some new physics, they have nothing to work with that they haven’t already had for 50 years, no new input that can tell them in which direction to look for the ultimate goal of unification and/or quantum gravity.").

Here's the article by Steven Weinberg "A United Physics by 2050?" I'll read it again now.. http://www.drtulsian.com/interestingReading/physics/unified-physics-by-2050.pdf
 
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  • #12
Y'know, I've seen many forms of this type of "Oh no, the sky is falling"-type articles on this-and-that crisis because certain things haven't been solved or certain things haven't been found... yet! People today are either impatient, have short attention span, or simply forget that things have become more complicated and that more, paradigm-shifting discoveries are going to be less common and will take a longer time. A human lifetime is actually quite short, and to think that many of these things should occur in such a time scale is highly unreasonable.

Superconductivity was discovered in 1911. It took more than 40 years until a successful and satisfactory explanation for the physics of superconductivity to be published in 1957. Forty years, folks!

Now, you can argue that at that time, the "tools" of quantum mechanics were not yet established, so trying to solve the physics that require such tools were impossible till all of them were in place. Well, why can't we make similar arguments here? How are you to know that (i) all the tools that you need have already been found and (ii) all the possible experiments that you need to be able to formulate a clear set of theory have already been done? After all, between 1911 and 1957, more and more experiments and discoveries in superconductivity were being made to help in the development of the BCS theory. And let's not forget how long we've been searching for gravitational waves until their detection only recently.

In this fast-paced, almost-instantaneous news world, we seem to lose sight that the idea such as "dark matter", "dark energy", etc. are actually quite new! In fact, "dark energy" data are still in their infancy! It just feels as if it has been around for a "long" time, because of the fact that it is sexy news and seems to be in the media often. And just like gravitational waves, many of the experiments needed to detect them, supersymmetry particles, etc.. etc... are NOT easy experiments. They are also not cheap, and in a world where science budgets have either been slashed or remain stagnant, what are the odds that we can make a fast-paced discovery?

The things we are tackling now are getting to be more and more difficult, both theoretically and experimentally. We should not expect the pace of discovery and resolution to proceed at a "normal" pace. I do not see a "crisis" here.

Zz.
 
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  • #13
Addendum to my previous post. I can't believe I forgot this, but high-Tc superconductivity has just passed 40 years since its Nobel-winning discovery (1986). Yet, we still do not have a satisfactory theory to explain this phenomenon. You don't see condensed matter theorists running around like chickens with their heads cut-off proclaiming a crisis, do you?

Zz.
 
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  • #14
First, since not many people have read the link, they should. If not, they should at least read this much:

Today the word crisis has a sinister connotation, suggesting an approaching downfall, a moment of dificulty or danger. This is not the original meaning of the word. Crisis comes from the Greek krisis, which means "decisive moment", "turning point", and was especially used in a medical context by Hippocrates and Galen as the end of a disease. This is the meaning I will refer to and, to stress the idea, I will use the spelling krisis.

Second, in reference to Zz's history of superconductivity, it wasn't until 1950 until the critical experiment - showing the isotope effect - was even performed.
 
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  • #15
star apple said:
Did you know Steven Weinberg has written an article in the Scientific American. I think he mentioned the TOE would arrive about 2050 (I'll search the article tomorrow). So it's only 33 more years to go... Remember we have waited for 50 years patiently (I got this from Bee " Without some new physics, they have nothing to work with that they haven’t already had for 50 years, no new input that can tell them in which direction to look for the ultimate goal of unification and/or quantum gravity.").
ZapperZ said:
Addendum to my previous post. I can't believe I forgot this, but high-Tc superconductivity has just passed 40 years since its Nobel-winning discovery (1986). Yet, we still do not have a satisfactory theory to explain this phenomenon. You don't see condensed matter theorists running around like chickens with their heads cut-off proclaiming a crisis, do you?

Zz.
Speaking of condensed matter, I believe that condensed-matter style of thinking could be the best approach towards a ToE, as suggested by
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0198507828/?tag=pfamazon01-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/019922725X/?tag=pfamazon01-20
 
  • #16
Demystifier said:
Speaking of condensed matter, I believe that condensed-matter style of thinking could be the best approach towards a ToE, as suggested by
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0198507828/?tag=pfamazon01-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/019922725X/?tag=pfamazon01-20

That would be ironic, since condensed matter theorists such as Phil Anderson and Bob Laughlin dismissed the concept of a "Theory of Everything". I believe it was Laughlin who said that it is "ToE" for reductionism, but it is not a ToE of physics.

Zz.
 
  • #17
Demystifier said:
Maybe multiverse?
Maybe. On the other hand, it's a concept which is mainly motivated by inflation and string theory, two theories which are heavily criticized at the moment when it comes down to the question whether they describe reality.

I don't agree with the way ZapperZ is describing the attitude of the paper by Giudice. Giudice uses the word "crisis" in a very distinct and optimistic way. Also, there is probably a deep and profound message to be found in the lack of new particles at the LHC. Patience is good, but one also has to know when signs are coming which tell you to question well-established physics. That's where the paper imo is about.
 
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  • #18
star apple said:
Here's the article by Steven Weinberg "A United Physics by 2050?" I'll read it again now.. http://www.drtulsian.com/interestingReading/physics/unified-physics-by-2050.pdf

This article is from 1999. In it Weinberg wrote- "There is a chance the work of unification will be completed by 2050, but about that we cannot be confident."

I think he's less optimistic these days...

BTW- The November, 2017, CERN Courier has 2 Weinberg articles. One on the 1967 Electroweak paper and the other an interview with him.
 
  • #19
ZapperZ said:
That would be ironic, since condensed matter theorists such as Phil Anderson and Bob Laughlin dismissed the concept of a "Theory of Everything". I believe it was Laughlin who said that it is "ToE" for reductionism, but it is not a ToE of physics.

Zz.
I think that Anderson and Laughlin only dismiss reductionism in practice, not reductionism in principle. The behavior of high Tc superconductors can, in principle, be predicted by a computer simulation of a system with ##10^{23}## particles, but we don't have such a strong computer, and even if we had one, we still couldn't say that we understand high Tc superconductivity. For efficient understanding, we need an effective non-fundamental emergent theory which operates with only a few effective degrees of freedom.

And particle physicists who search for a ToE, mean it only in the sense of reductionism in principle. No string theorist attempts to apply string theory to explain the protein folding. So there is no true disagreement between condensed matter physicists and particle physicists.
 
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  • #20
ZapperZ said:
Addendum to my previous post. I can't believe I forgot this, but high-Tc superconductivity has just passed 40 years since its Nobel-winning discovery (1986). Yet, we still do not have a satisfactory theory to explain this phenomenon. You don't see condensed matter theorists running around like chickens with their heads cut-off proclaiming a crisis, do you?

Zz.

Of course, they're too frozen to reply.
 
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  • #21
One issue is that people have an implicit set of assumptions about what fundamental physics is, and therefore, will not see the directions from which new, radical ideas about physics may arise. If you expect it to be reductionist particle physics when the answer (might!) come from elsewhere, you may very well think we are in a crisis. Here are several areas that may play a significant role in fundamental physics by my reckoning to which people do not see a connection due to various implicit assumptions:

1. Artificial intelligence. I may be bearish on its alleged near future applications, but the question of engineering an intelligent system may shed light on fundamental questions regarding modeling the observer/system interaction that underlies quantum mechanics.

2. Chemical and biological physics. For instance, a protein is the simplest object in the universe I can think of that does signal processing, and rather than being engineered, it evolved through natural physical processes. There are major theoretical similarities between the geometric structure of their phase spaces and the phase spaces of learning models such as neural networks. Again, this could ultimately stimulate developments in the synthesis of computer science, statistics, and physics.

3. Quantum information/quantum computing. More people suspect this may have major implications, but it surprises me how people sometimes dismiss this idea.

Honorable mentions:
The emergence of analogs to quantum field theory in condensed matter has been studied for decades, but it's still incomplete. Topological effects are the topic du jour and there's more to do than that.
 
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  • #22
jedishrfu said:
Everyone is waiting for that next great breakthrough. String theory is perhaps the gedanken way of thinking taken too far and has mesmerized folks into thinking it is the one true way.

fresh_42 said:
That's what I thought, too. To me it always appears like: "QFT works fine with small Lie algebras. Maybe we should consider simply higher dimensions? I mean, they all can be embedded in one ##\mathfrak{sl}(n)## as long as only ##n## is large enough!" And as if this wasn't sufficiently general: "Let's grade them!" Personally I hope, that the truth is buried in their solvable subalgebras rather than the entire simple ones.

Higher dimensions, as well as lower dimensions. I consider https://arxiv.org/abs/1705.03026 to exemplify the current exciting and healthy state of affairs in theory. What do you think of such work?
 
  • #23
Demystifier said:
Maybe multiverse?

In condensed matter, the multiverse already exists.
 
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  • #24
First, here's a http://member.ipmu.jp/sourav.mandal/anomalies.html of particle physics anomalies from a few years back. I'm not sure how many of these are still considered live issues.

Second, neutrino masses and the dark sector need to be accounted for, and baryogenesis in cosmology.

Third, one may hope to derive the parameters of the SM from a deeper theory, and then even test that theory by predicting the next decimal place. String theory still seems pretty unique in its capacity to make such predictions (e.g. of coupling constants and yukawas), if only string theorists can figure out how to calculate them to a precision beyond O(1) estimates. o_O (Actually, it would be massive progress in string phenomenology, even to have a "standard model vacuum" which gave calculable predictions for all SM parameters that were of the correct order of magnitude.)

Above and beyond all that are questions like, why these gauge groups, why the quantum, why does anything at all exist.

I mention all this just to put in context my view on Giudice's headline topic of naturalness.

I think about it like this: A model, a theory, either contains finetuning or it doesn't. That it contains finetuning in no way implies that it is wrong. Our current empirically best models - the slight extensions of the standard model which propose definite mechanisms for neutrino mass, etc - contain finetuning. In such models, the Higgs boson mass, the cosmological constant, the QCD theta angle, all require finetuning.

However, that it requires finetuning does imply that it is incomplete. If your theory rests on an absolutely massive near-coincidence between a bare parameter and a mess of quantum corrections, there needs to be an explanation.

In a natural theory, that situation is replaced by one in which the quantum corrections are small for a reason like symmetry, so the bare parameter doesn't have to be large and finetuned to cancel against them.

In an anthropic solution to finetuning, the quantum corrections remain a mess but they (or the quantum corrections plus the bare parameter) add up to a small number anyway, so that life (or atoms or whatever) may exist.

In principle you could have a theory in which finetuning is absent because "bare parameter + quantum corrections" just isn't the fundamental framework. This would fall under the category of nonperturbative solutions to finetuning. Ideas exist, they all seem pretty hazy, but maybe I am forgetting something.

Anyway, all I want to say is that, yes, finetuning is a problem, it is one of the unsolved problems of physics, and various types of solution are available. But it is not the only problem, and it is not a problem that absolutely must be solved before anything else can be discovered.
 
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  • #25
ZapperZ said:
Addendum to my previous post. I can't believe I forgot this, but high-Tc superconductivity has just passed 40 years since its Nobel-winning discovery (1986). Yet, we still do not have a satisfactory theory to explain this phenomenon. You don't see condensed matter theorists running around like chickens with their heads cut-off proclaiming a crisis, do you?
The situation is completely different in condensed matter. There is an unexplained experimental phenomenon - there is something to work on and you know the direction new theories should have.
That is the point. The discussed crisis is not the lack of new models - we have tons of new models in particle physics. But we have no idea which direction is good.
mitchell porter said:
irst, here's a http://member.ipmu.jp/sourav.mandal/anomalies.html of particle physics anomalies from a few years back. I'm not sure how many of these are still considered live issues.
Most of them should still be there. The cosmic ray e+ excess is highly significant now. The WIMP "signal" has been ruled out by other experiments, I'm highly confident it is a measurement error. Proton charge radius is still open, and B to K μ μ and related measurements continue to be puzzling, with more and more deviations accumulating over time.
The Tevatron measurements should have been superseded by LHC measurements now. Charm CP violation went away with more data from LHCb. Muon g-2 should get an update in the near future, the new experiment is running.
 
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  • #26
I think the "krisis" relates to missing something simple in the vast sea of complexity in current times. I think "we" as diverse groups of individuals are all off on our own tangents immersed in specialized branches of science and physics, where no one person has a deep enough understanding of every angle of every interaction to tie it all together coherently. For example, how does the cosmological constant affect protein folding? Or how does "dark energy" relate to proton radius? Inquiring minds want to know...

Perhaps the krisis can lead to a eureka moment when we figure out how quantum probability emerges into classical determinism...
 
  • #27
ZapperZ said:
Y'know, I've seen many forms of this type of "Oh no, the sky is falling"-type articles on this-and-that crisis because certain things haven't been solved or certain things haven't been found...
This is not at all what Giudice is saying, quite the contrary. He is saying that it is a good and exciting time to be a physicist because of the apparent failure of some principles that have been guiding physics for a long time. It is an opportunity for new ideas to emerge.

ZapperZ said:
but high-Tc superconductivity has just passed 40 years since its Nobel-winning discovery (1986).
It is 2027 already? Time sure flies. :rolleyes:

Vanadium 50 said:
First, since not many people have read the link, they should. If not, they should at least read this much:
"Today the word crisis has a sinister connotation, suggesting an approaching downfall, a moment of dificulty or danger. This is not the original meaning of the word. Crisis comes from the Greek krisis, which means "decisive moment", "turning point", and was especially used in a medical context by Hippocrates and Galen as the end of a disease. This is the meaning I will refer to and, to stress the idea, I will use the spelling krisis."
Should he then not spell it "κρισις"? :rolleyes:
 
  • #28
Rereading Steven Weinberg's year 1999 "United Physics by 2050?" sciam article. I'm surprised to hear he has the same tone as Smolin's, Woit's, Sabine's. Weinberg wrote "The very least new thing that will be discovered is a single electrically neutral scalar particle. It would be a disaster if this were all that were discovered by 2020, though, because it would leave us without a clue to the solution of a formidable puzzle regarding the characteristic energies encountered in physics, known as the hierarchy problem."

So I think Smolin, Woit, Sabine were inspired by the living legend himself, Steven Weinberg. So you can't blame these three. And btw, I think Giudice wrote the article because of his interview with Sabine in her forthcoming book "Lost in Math".

3 years more to go, then Weinberg's "disaster", sabine's "nightmare scenario", woit's "not even wrong" and smolin's "Trouble with Physics" would be more meaningful.

Whatever, nature is consistent. It is not like politics. So if nature has surprises up his sleeve. It will eventually be revealed. And no amount of popularity contest could make it go away.
 
  • #29
star apple said:
So it's only 33 more years to go

Damn well better come sooner then that, I don't have that long.:H
 
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  • #30
A lot of this seems like moaning due to incoherent motives, though. The bleak pronouncements seem to be based upon weird assumptions about how significant high energy particle physics is. The reality from my vantage point is that HEP is significantly less significant than people think, due to weird, unsubstantiated assumptions about reductionism.

The fact that I can find the Dirac equation anywhere the bands of a solid are approximately linear should alert you to the fact that this assumption about HEP's importance is dubious, as one of many examples.
 
  • #31
Great article. I love the author's writing style.

Fra said:
Or the concept of evolution of laws? Which biologists know already, but physicists insist on trying to find timeless laws in a true reductionist spirit.

The constancy of natural law is a required presupposition for the expectation that experiments be repeatable.

Demystifier said:
With current publish-or-perish standards, some of them could not get a job today.

Job? Was Physics Einstein's job? Wasn't Newton on vacay when he wrote Principia? Whatever else physics is, it is not a job. It is much more important than the daily bread.
 
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  • #32
Spinnor said:
Damn well better come sooner then that, I don't have that long.:H

Let's say you are 70 years old at present.. 33 years from now you would be 103 years old. I think you can still understand a bit of wikipedia 2050-2060 entry on "Unification Achieved:

"At some point in the late 20th century, all of physicists was united in celebration. We marveled at our own magnificence as we gave birth to Gauge Symmetry: a singular principle that spawned an entire fleet of accelerators. We don't know who struck first and put us on downward spiral as we realized we were put on a wild goose chase for more than half a century. At that time they were dependent on gauge symmetry and Susy, superstrings, loop quantum gravity, and it was believed they were unable to survive without a principle of gauge symmetry.
"In the middle half of the 21th century. A latest breed of physicists replaced the old ones and a series of breakthroughs occurred concluding in a conference rivaling the most famous conference in October 1927 Fifth Solvay International Conference on Electrons and Photons, where the world's most notable physicists met to discuss the newly formulated quantum theory. Among the most modern stunning breakthroughs is the experimental confirmation the constants of nature parameters were programmed and universe being a living organism". [excerpts from Wikipedia 2057]

Haha.. just a joke!.. to lighten up our frustrations guys! but hope we would still be around in 2050.. that's why we must take more vitamins now and be healthy so we can await the day they solve the united physics hinted at by the living legend himself, Steven Weinberg.
 
  • #33
Dr. Courtney said:
The constancy of natural law is a required presupposition for the expectation that experiments be repeatable.
Yes, this is the classical argument, but this applies only to subsystems, limited in time.

The logical sequence is: You infer the timeless laws, from repetable experiments. You should not therefore assume that any experiments just produce a timeless law.

But what if experiments are not repetable? We can still to "experiments" and infer effective laws, but they can be said to are "timeless" only on timescales smaller than the sequence of experiments.

See for example
Unification of the state with the dynamical law
"We address the question of why particular laws were selected for the universe, by proposing a mechanism for laws to evolve. Normally in phys
ical theories, time-less laws act on time-evolving states. We propose that this is an approximation, good on time scales shorter than cosmological scales, beyond which laws and states are merged into a single entity that evolves in time. Furthermore the approximate dis-tinction between laws and states, when it does emerge, is dependent on the initial conditions."
-- https://arxiv.org/pdf/1201.2632.pdf

There is also another interesting idea, which relates to this

Precedence and freedom in quantum physics
"A new interpretation of quantum mechanics is proposed according to which precedence, freedom and novelty play central roles. This is based on a modification of the postulates for quantum theory given by Masanes and Muller. We argue that quantum mechanics is uniquely characterized as the probabilistic theory in which individual systems have maximal freedom in their responses to experiment, given reasonable axioms for the behavior of probabilities in a physical theory. Thus, to the extent that quantum systems are free, in the sense of Conway and Kochen, there is a sense in which they are maximally free.
We also propose that laws of quantum evolution arise from a principle of precedence, according to which the outcome of a measurement on a quantum system is selected randomly from the ensemble of outcomes of previous instances of the same measurement on the same quantum system. This implies that dynamical laws for quantum systems can evolve as the universe evolves, because new precedents are generated by the formation of new entangled states."
-- https://arxiv.org/abs/1205.3707

As far as i remember from Smolins books, the original ambition of this idea was a possible solution to the landscape problem in string theory. In Smolins Cosmological Natural Selection, the idea is that laws mutate at big bang but not after that, and that such and idea is falsifiable in principle.

If someone thinks this is off topic wrt the crisis in physics and need for new ideas, we are just on different pages in this discussion.

/Fredrik
 
  • #34
Fra said:
The logical sequence is: You infer the timeless laws, from repetable experiments. You should not therefore assume that any experiments just produce a timeless law.

But what if experiments are not repetable? We can still to "experiments" and infer effective laws, but they can be said to are "timeless" only on timescales smaller than the sequence of experiments.
Or you find better laws.
The law "the Sun is 15 degrees above the horizon" works well for short time periods, but obviously not for longer ones. The law "the Sun's angle follows a sine curve" works for a day already, and orbital mechanics works forever.
 
  • #35
star apple said:
Let's say you are 70 years old at present
60 but feel like 70 in the evenings.

10 years or less they get strings straightened out. Let's talk about it on PhysicsForums! I hope to be here when it happens.

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  • #36
mfb said:
Or you find better laws.
Exactly. But the question is HOW That is core topic here. ie what guiding principles to use?

/Fredrik
 
  • #37
Look for possible deviation, see if the experiments give the same result under as many different conditions as we can test. This is done already. Within reason - we don’t take everything on our lab benches and drop it on the floor to test if it is affected by gravity, because that had been established with so many items over and over again that we can use our time and equipment in better ways.
 
  • #38
You are right all what you say but i don't think you get the point. (ie the problem of this schema, and the possible benefit of the alterantive).

Before i write a lot anymore: Have you read any of smolins evolution of law papers or books? The reason why smolin writes so lenghty a out this, is to get the reader first on the same page, before he presents the crazy idea.

IF so, what is your opinion? I am not sure if you simply disagree with this idea, or if you don't see what it is?

Also the parallell here, is not JUST evolution of human science. The idea is that physical LAW itself evolves and can be described in the same abstraction. This can´t be discussed without some philosophy.

For example, HOW does the proton just to take a random example, "know" which laws to obey? Do you envision this as some mathematical logic that actually puts constraints on PHYSICAL processes? Or are equivalent to them? That is almost gOr do you envision that the behaviour of the proton is encoded in the evolved tuning between the internal structure and its environment?

The problem with the power of logical constraints, is that they are not uniqe. And we are lead to finetuning problems to the point where we can get lost in the random walk in hypothesis space. As I see it, this is part of the the problem we see today.

/Fredrik
 
  • #39
Well, where to start... I do think that the foundations of physics are and have been in a deep state of crisis for quite some time now, but I do not know how far this has infested the rest of the field. My expertise is restricted to the former. The author refers to Thomas Kuhn in the article, which - as I see it - is a very appropriate way to look at it. Here's the relevant passage from page 4 of the article, which sums up Kuhn's ideas quite nicely:

Gian Francesco Giudice said:
In his famous essay "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" [10], the science historian Thomas Kuhn identifies a pattern in the development of scientific theories that is common to all revolutions in science. By freely reinterpreting (and simplifying) Kuhn’s structure, I can distinguish three phases in the process. The phase of discovery is when new conceptual breakthroughs and experimental results lead to the emergence of a new theory that departs from old paradigms. This is followed by a phase of consolidation, in which the theory is understood at a much deeper level and confirmed by precise measurements. This process has the effect of transforming the new theory into the established paradigm of normal science. Inescapably, this is superseded by a phase of crisis, in which the normal theory can no longer address new conceptual questions or explain experimental data. This phase is characterised by the search for new paradigms and marked by periods of confusion and frustration. Finally a paradigm shift occurs, which results in a radical departure from normal science, thus activating a new phase of discovery and marking the beginning of a new cycle.

What I do not like about this description by the author is that it makes it seem like the crisis resolves itself. But on the contrary, Kuhn described that without a successful revolution the crisis persists, worsens and deepens. By a "successful revolution" it is meant that one of the groups competing for a new paradigm (which always exist) convincingly resolves the fundamental conflicts in the field (not just the ones concerning the subject) and becomes dominant.

Now, why do I think the foundations of physics (not just particle physics) currently are in such a state of crisis?

For almost a century now we have had two major schools of thought dominating the field of fundamental physics, namely the relativists and the quantum theorists. It is not a secret that these two way of viewing the physical world have not been fully reconciled with each other, even though steps in the direction have been done with quantum field theory and the like. What we see today is various schools competing to become the dominant narrative for a so called theory of "quantum gravity", the major ones (by my judgements) being Loop Quantum Gravity, String Theory, Quantum Field Theory on Curved Spacetimes (coming from the Haag/Kastner School) and Causal Dynamical Triangulation. Of course, we already have dominant narratives within the two major schools, that is the Standard Model of Particle Physics among the quantum theorists and the General Theory of Relativity (still) among the relativists. This is where most "quantum gravity" schools start from, or at least this is what they are aiming for. Of course, most regular visitors of this subforum know this, but it is worthy to state the situation explicitly.

Now, despite the fact that String Theory appears to have become dominant, it really hasn't solved any of the fundamental problems in the field. Yes, one can argue a lot on what those are and this is an important discussion to have, but at the end of the day at least some of them have to be resolved. String theory (or any other of the schools) did not do this, but instead it created loads of new ones (e.g. missing dimensions, landscape problem) and - much like the other schools of "quantum gravity" - is becoming increasingly ad hoc and abstract. This is precisely what Kuhn described as symptoms of the crisis. That is, I argue that the rise of String Theory is a symptom of the crisis, not a sign of its solution. Taking "It's the only game in town" as an argument in favor of String Theory is but another indicator of how desperate the situation has become.

As for the origins of crisis, I think there are three main categories of problems (as far as I remember, Kuhn also argued along those lines): Those that concern the subject, those that concern the way the science is done (institutional) and methodological issues.

the subject: This is basically a lack of ideas and good strategy to approach the problems of the field. In my opinion, better training, more space for critical thinking and more support for young researchers with fresh ideas would solve this problem.

institutional: Todays universities are not primarily laid out to train the next generation of researchers, but to "prepare" people for their jobs outside of academia (at least that is the official narrative). They are very locked-in, elitist, hierarchical-structured institutions, which do not cherish free thought, but technical problem solving (as long as it agrees with the textbook) and obedience. Most universities and much of the research without direct prospects of leading to a sell-able product are chronically under-funded. When it comes to fundamental research, which by definition is the basis for all other research, the most money is not going to the best researchers with the brightest/most sound ideas, but to those doing the best marketing. Moreover, jobs are not given on the basis of academic merit, but on the basis of publication counts (content does not matter as long as people jump onto the bandwagon), on how well one can attract funding and, of course, whether one knows the right people. IMHO, it is in this light that the "success" of String Theory has to be viewed (see, e.g. the books by Woit and Smolin).

methodological: If you are a theorist or mathematician, you know how hand-waving some of the arguments in theoretical physics are. Rigorous proof and careful formulation of mathematical problems is something for pigheads, open philosophy is shunned at, while bad, hidden philosophy runs the game. The emphasis is not put on understanding, but on getting quick results - no matter how they were obtained.

Yes, to a certain degree this is my opinion, but it is also based on personal research and a lot of hard-won experience with the academic sector. It is sometimes difficult to separate the above problems, but I think that all three need to be approached in order for the subject to have any future.
 
  • #40
There are so many things that are incorrect with this, I don't know where to start! So I'll tackled just one:

Geometry_dude said:
institutional: Todays universities are not primarily laid out to train the next generation of researchers, but to "prepare" people for their jobs outside of academia (at least that is the official narrative). They are very locked-in, elitist, hierarchical-structured institutions, which do not cherish free thought, but technical problem solving (as long as it agrees with the textbook) and obedience. Most universities and much of the research without direct prospects of leading to a sell-able product are chronically under-funded. When it comes to fundamental research, which by definition is the basis for all other research, the most money is not going to the best researchers with the brightest/most sound ideas, but to those doing the best marketing. Moreover, jobs are not given on the basis of academic merit, but on the basis of publication counts (content does not matter as long as people jump onto the bandwagon), on how well one can attract funding and, of course, whether one knows the right people. IMHO, it is in this light that the "success" of String Theory has to be viewed (see, e.g. the books by Woit and Smolin).

I do not know where you get your impression from but I can easily falsify that.

1. Many of the research work that we do are NOT in "textbooks". Do you think when the cuprate superconductors were discovered, and then the vigorous research work were all being done, they were were working within the confined to any "textbooks"? As far as I can remember, we were rewriting the textbooks on superconductivity almost monthly during the heydays of high-Tc superconductors. So where, in this example alone, are we solving a technical problem that agrees with the textbooks at that time?

And this is just ONE example. I can bring out many more, and I'm sure, so can others on here.

2. The broad agenda of the direction of research work is often NOT set by individual institutions. Rather, funding agencies can direct large-scale effort into particular directions, and educational institutions often have to adjust if they wish to receive funding for those broad areas. So if you think that there is an under-funding of "non sellable" research area, the people you need to whine to are your elected officials! Do you think these educational institutions are in favor of, or the ones initiating, the continued shrinkage of basic science funding at DOE and NSF? Think again!

3. It is a fallacy to think that something that is done in the so-called applied field of physics has no impact or contribution to fundamental knowledge. I can easily point out the origin of the Higgs mechanism coming out of Phil Anderson's work on superconductivity (a VERY "applied" and "sell-able" field). The BCS theory of superconductivity itself has impacted fundamental physics in a very profound way! And let's not forget that it is within the condensed matter system that we spotted the Majorana fermions and the equivalent of the magnetic monopole. To dismiss these areas simply because they are in a "sell-able" field is not only short-sighted, but also ignorant. They produced fundamental knowledge as anything else!

4. Where is the statistics that support the assertion that "... jobs are not given on the basis of academic merit, but on the basis of publication counts... " I don't see it and I don't see any evidence to support it. 2 years ago, our dept. gave tenure to an assistant professor who, in the 3 years that he was here, published "only" 4 papers, but 2 of them were in Science and PRL. I know, because I had to write supporting documents on the impact of those two papers.

All the things you stated were not supported by evidence, and that is ironic considering that for a science forum, one would think that one must show clear evidence to support these arguments. Your post is no better than a political rally where things are thrown out freely without any need for determining their validity.

Zz.
 
  • #41
ZapperZ, thank you for your reply. To put things into perspective, I have to say again that a lot of this is based on my experience within academia and conversations with people I have been talking to about this issue, not careful scientific studies. Also, I live in central Europe (Germany/Netherlands), so there may be some differences here.

I am glad that the field you are working in is alive and healthy - I really am. It is a different field though. That is, of course, not to say that superconductivity does not have anything to teach to those working on the fundamentals, on the contrary. It is just that, as I view it, superconductivity is very close to experiment, so the try-and-error, ad-hoc-modifying way of doing things can be very successful. Because there is such a direct contact with the phenomena, one can always cross check whether the things one does make sense or not without needing to employ careful reasoning and mathematical proofs (without denying that this is done in some ways). However, this approach fails when one is trying to build theories on deep mathematical laws and principles of nature - as one inevitably has to do in the foundations, otherwise there can be no unified picture.

To your points:
1. Yes, you were already employed and had some status. But how was it like when you were a student?
2. I fully agree here.
3. Absolutely, it is a dialogue. But if fundamental research is done right, it should lead back to applications, make things more coherent and less ad hoc there. Why do you think you had to rewrite those textbooks?
4. I do not have any. The question is also whether one can actually measure that. But I know of many researchers who have done very good work in the foundations (mostly GR) and never got a tenured position, many of them had to leave academia entirely. Off the top of my head, I also know at least two tenured professors, where I fail to see how their work constitutes a contribution to their field (both of them working on "quantum gravity"). So our experience differs here.

I think you should be more careful with your accusations, you may very well be targeting the wrong people. If you believe in science, well, then let's try to figure out what's really going on. Maybe I have just seen too many of the ugly parts of academia (there were also good ones, to be fair), but I do dare to claim that there's more behind it than just personal experience.
 
  • #42
Since this thread has run its course, it is now time to reflect on the discussion and to close it.

We would like to thank all who contributed here and await the coming of the next great physics revolution whatever it may be.

Thread now closed.
 
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