The Fundamental Relation of Thermodynamics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of the fundamental relation of thermodynamics, particularly its characterization as a homogeneous first-order relation. Participants explore the implications of this mathematical description in relation to physical variables in thermodynamics, questioning the interdependence of these variables and the nature of their relationships.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks clarification on what it means for the fundamental relation to be homogeneous first-order and questions the linear relationship among thermodynamic variables.
  • Another participant explains that homogeneous first-order describes a type of differential equation and suggests familiarity with differential equations as beneficial for understanding.
  • A participant references a wiki article they contributed to, indicating it provides a good explanation of the physics behind the fundamental relation.
  • It is noted that a function is first-order homogeneous if it satisfies a specific mathematical condition, and examples of such functions are discussed.
  • One participant emphasizes that the fundamental equation of thermodynamics is when internal energy or entropy can be expressed as a function of extensive parameters, asserting that this encompasses all thermodynamic information about a system.
  • Another participant distinguishes between the "fundamental thermodynamic relation" and the "fundamental equation," asserting the former's broader applicability even in non-extensive systems.
  • Concerns are raised about the validity of the assumption that increasing extensive variables leads to a proportional increase in internal energy, particularly in systems with long-range interactions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the definitions and implications of the fundamental relation and equation, indicating that multiple competing interpretations exist. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the nature of interdependence among thermodynamic variables and the conditions under which the fundamental relation holds.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that definitions and assumptions may vary, and there are unresolved mathematical steps related to the application of Euler's theorem and the conditions for homogeneity in different contexts.

avocadogirl
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What does it mean to say that the fundamental relation of thermodynamics is homogeneous first-order?

I struggle with the abstraction of mathematical definitions and, I'm really seeking more to understand the relation of the physical variables of thermodynamics.

Why are all of the variables interdependent by a linear relationship? Or, is it incorrect to say such a thing?

Is it because, you look at the change in every variable as a function of the changes of every other variable?

Please know, the time and assistance of all those who respond is deeply appreciated. Sincere thanks.

M.
 
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Homogeneous first-order is just a description of the differential equation. If you've taken differential equation you'll be familiar with what the ideas are (though you may have forgotten their names). If you haven't taken differential equations then it would behoove you to read the first chapter of a differential equations text.
 
A function f(x,y) is first-order homogeneous if the following holds:

f(\lambda x, \lambda y) = \lambda f(x,y)

Linear functions are first-order homogeneous, but they are not the only possibility. Consider the function

f(x,y) = \sqrt{x^2 + y^2}

This function is also first-order homogeneous. You should be able to come up with additional examples.

The reason first-order homogeneous functions turn up in thermodynamics is that we choose to write the equations in terms of all the "extensive" thermodynamic quantities. Extensive quantities are additive, by definition. For example, when you double the volume of a system, the entropy and energy also double. This allows us to write

E = E(S, V)

where E is a first-order homogeneous function. Using this fact, the differential equation may be solved using Euler's theorem.
 
Edit: Ben Niehoff beat me to the punch. Everything I said he basically already said. :redface:

Monocles said:
Homogeneous first-order is just a description of the differential equation. If you've taken differential equation you'll be familiar with what the ideas are (though you may have forgotten their names). If you haven't taken differential equations then it would behoove you to read the first chapter of a differential equations text.

Isn't it obnoxious when somebody, instead of giving you a quick answer plus possible references, they tell you to just go read a general reference? It's even worse when they are absolutely wrong. :rolleyes:

The fundamental equation of thermodynamics is when you are able to get the internal energy (or the entropy) as a function of the other extensive parameters. Only then is ALL thermodynamics information about a system known. Mathematically:

U = U(S, V, Ni)

The fact that the fundamental equation is a homogeneous FUNCTION of first-order (different front a homogeneous differential equation of first-order) means that:

aU(S, V, Ni) = U(aS, aV, aNi)

where a is some constant.

In general, a function is homogeneous of n-th order if:

anf(x1, x2, ..., xm) = f(anx1, anx2, ..., anxm)

Note that my definition of the fundamental equation differs from the definition of Count Iblis. What he calls the fundamental equation, I usually see termed as "the combined first and second law". The solution of this equation, however, yields the fundamental equation.
 
Last edited:
The equation:

dU = T dS - P dV

is called the "fundamental thermodynamic relation" by F. Reif. The equation:

U = TS - P V + mu_1 N_1 + mu_2 N_2 + ..

is called the "fundamental equation" or "fundamental relation" in some books.


Thing is that dU = T dS - P dV is more fundamental than the other equation, because this is also valid (for fixed N_i and other generalized forces) when the system is not extensive. Suppose the system is completely described by S, V and N, then we have:

dU = T dS - P dV + mu dN

Then, as Ben Niehoff and cmos explain, U assumed to be homogeneous means that we assume that increasing S, V and N by a factor p will make U increase by a factor p. Euler's theorem, mentioned by Ben above implies that U(S, V, N) can be expressed as:

U(S, V, N) = T S - P V + mu N

So, when would this not be valid (apart from the trivial case when ther are other types of particles that have not been included)?
Consider e.g. a system of particles that interact with each other via long range interactions e.g. gravity. Then, combining two identical system would certainly not lead to a doubling of the internal energy.
 

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