News The Grand Deception: 'Kerry, War Hero,' Is a Myth

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The discussion centers on the controversial portrayal of John Kerry as a Vietnam War hero, arguing that this image is largely a myth constructed through exaggeration and media support. Critics assert that Kerry's military service, particularly his receipt of medals like the Purple Heart and Bronze Star, is based on dubious claims and misrepresentations of events, including a self-inflicted injury and a lack of enemy fire during a rescue operation. The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth challenge the narrative of Kerry's heroism, claiming that his actions were not as valorous as presented. Supporters of Kerry point to official Navy rulings affirming his medal eligibility, but skepticism remains regarding the validity of these claims. The debate highlights broader issues of military honor and the political implications of war narratives.
  • #91
vanesch said:
North Korea is no issue.

hahahaha, really ?

Why do you think the light in that country is only used for illuminating pictures and statures of the leader over there. Why do you think there are concentration camps out there?

Why do you think they are best friends with the world?

OOOhhh, yes i forgot, that is not our business since this involves stuff that is going on inside this "nation".

If I follow your "deep" way of thinking we would probably still be under the supremacy of the nazi-regime. Are you a real European Vanesch, or just a loner in this world minding his own futile business...just wondering :rolleyes:

regards
marlon
 
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  • #92
vanesch said:
It is just that it isn't our business, as long as there is no danger for it to devellop into a thread to us.

That is the French way, not the American way.
 
  • #93
kawikdx225 said:
That is the French way, not the American way.

Probably (although it hasn't always been that way :-).
I prefer it that way. By large. Only mix in with others if you are concerned yourself.

cheers,
Patrick.
 
  • #94
marlon said:
If I follow your "deep" way of thinking we would probably still be under the supremacy of the nazi-regime.

No, because that was an external agression. Just as the agression of Kuwait was. So intervention to help a friend is no problem. What I have a problem with is declaring an uninvited war for an ungrounded reason of which the one who declares it knows very well that it is ungrounded.

cheers,
Patrick.
 
  • #95
I prefer it that way. By large. Only mix in with others if you are concerned yourself.

As someone else has said, that selfish, cowardly attitude is not American. In this country, we feel obligated to help when we can. Sure it may bite us on occassion, but our concern for the lives of others should never be ridiculed. There are a lot of free South Koreans that can thank us for not being so self-centered.
 
  • #96
vanesch said:
No, because that was an external agression. Just as the agression of Kuwait was. So intervention to help a friend is no problem. What I have a problem with is declaring an uninvited war for an ungrounded reason of which the one who declares it knows very well that it is ungrounded.

cheers,
Patrick.

Well, i see your point here and i agree. But then in this case the war in Iraq would be justified since Saddam committed crimes against virtually every population that lives at the borders of Iraq. Look at what happened in southern Turkey and Syria...

Besides in this case, making the analogy with the second world war, Bush sr should have eliminated the regime of Saddam in the first place just as was done with the nazis here...I mean, Germany and italy and Spain,... were no allies of the US back then yet they were all liberated by the US and Canada. father Bush should have eliminated the regime of Saddam, he failed to do so. Now his son is cleaning up his mess. Thus the War in Iraq is justified, no ?

marlon
 
  • #97
JohnDubYa said:
As someone else has said, that selfish, cowardly attitude is not American. In this country, we feel obligated to help when we can. Sure it may bite us on occassion, but our concern for the lives of others should never be ridiculed. There are a lot of free South Koreans that can thank us for not being so self-centered.
As a statement about American foreign policy, this is so a-historical it's funny. Historically the U.S. was isolationist. Americans entered the World Wars out of concern for others? Korea and Vietnam were about the Korean and Vietnamese peoples not fear of communism?

Our concern for the lives of others should never be ridiculed, but traditionally those who thought it was part of foreign policy were "bleeding-heart" liberals... :eek:

Maybe things have changed in some fashion, but I have trouble seeing the degree of care, planning, coalition forming, and sophistication applied to actually helping and rebuilding Afghanistan or Iraq (as opposed to just toppling their regimes and introducing political instability) as showing any evidence of "concern for the lives of others" on the part of the administration. And just because there is a detail or two that can be found as a sop to war-supporters consciences doesn't mean that considered from the viewpoint of that concern that the overall effect of Bush's policies is not epically catastrophic.
 
  • #98
marlon said:
father Bush should have eliminated the regime of Saddam, he failed to do so. Now his son is cleaning up his mess. Thus the War in Iraq is justified, no ?

Simply speaking, you're right. The problem is that Bush Sr. had a lot of foreign affairs policy experience, while his son didn't even knew where Afghanistan was on the map, and so Bush Sr. realized that when a Western army would do such a thing, all Arab islamists would take it as an occasion to shoot on him, and moreover, than chances were big that Iraq would turn into a second Iran. He thought that, once Saddam's power broken, it was a regional affair ; remember that the other Arab nations DID NOT want the Western armies to invade Iraq: the agreement with the Gulf states was exactly that he could come and be there ONLY TO LIBERATE KUWAIT and then shove off. He kept his promise.
The only way to topple an Arab dictator and not have it turn into an islamist mess, is with consensus and support of other Arab nations and armies. The US, being military much stronger, could do the initial blow, but then it should be to the Arab forces to stabilize the after-war situation. There is no other way (because of feelings of national pride, religious considerations and so on). So it was BECAUSE other Arab nations didn't want Bush Sr. to topple Saddam that he didn't do so, because he knew very well he would be in deep sh*t if he did it on his own.
Bush Jr., thinking that Arabs go on a crusade, didn't realize this at all and went in like an imbecile, with the known result. Show me ONE Arab nation where there has been a non-Arab toppling of the local regime that didn't turn into a long-time islamist terrorist breeding ground.

Again, Saddam's power to be a nuisance to Western countries had been broken, and he wasn't involved in international terrorism. So from that point of view there was no problem for us. Ok, he was a merciless dictator, but there are others in this world, and then this is a problem (especially in this case) which can only be solved locally, and with international concencus. ALL these reasons make it that a war, such as started by Bush Jr, could only make the situation worse, as well for us as locally. And indeed, that is what happened. Moreover, based on lies.

cheers,
Patrick.
 
  • #99
JohnDubYa said:
In this country, we feel obligated to help when we can.

Well, sure. And this happened a few times in the past, and (western) Europe to can thank them. I wasn't criticising the US at all. I'm claiming that Bush Jr. is a patented idiot and a lier, that's all. Coming back to your "help": one can only "help" someone else if that someone else asks for it, no ? Where are the little american flags in the hands of the Iraq children, thanking Bush for his "help" ?
And, remember, the reason for the war was not to go out and help! The reason was that mean Saddam was training members of Al Quaida and had hydrogen bombs ready on intercontinental launchers to plunge right in the heart of Washington, no ? The argument was self-defense based on "very accurate intelligence information", wasn't it ? It would be clear to the world, after the war, that they had to go in, wasn't it ? It was not only wrong, he knew it wasn't true. And things DIDN'T happen the way he thought, as was also clear for everybody else. QED.

cheers,
Patrick.
 
  • #100
The opinions of the French government are no longer relevant. France has disgraced itself by providing billions of dollars to Saddam while pretending to honor the sanctions imposed by the UN. For the same reason the UN, as presently organized, as presently corrupted, is useless as a peace making body. France is now losing its influence in the EU; none of its ministers were given positions of importance.

Michel Barnier has replaced the ridiculous foreign minister De Villepin. Barnier has been instructed to “make nice” with the USA. It’s a little too late for that.
 
  • #101
Korea and Vietnam were about the Korean and Vietnamese peoples not fear of communism?

Fear of communism oppression of others, actually. Did anyone really think that North Korea was going to invade the US by sailing across the Pacific Ocean?
 
  • #102
Well, sure. And this happened a few times in the past, and (western) Europe to can thank them. I wasn't criticising the US at all. I'm claiming that Bush Jr. is a patented idiot and a lier, that's all. Coming back to your "help": one can only "help" someone else if that someone else asks for it, no ?

And how exactly were they supposed to ask for help with Saddam around? In Iraq, you didn't raise your voice for obvious reasons.

You are trying to deny what is obvious: The people of Iraq were butchered by thousands from Saddam's hands. The notion that they had no problems with it is ludicrous.

Where are the little american flags in the hands of the Iraq children, thanking Bush for his "help" ?

Soldiers have told countless stories about how some in Iraq have thanked them for removing Saddam.


And, remember, the reason for the war was not to go out and help! The reason was that mean Saddam was training members of Al Quaida and had hydrogen bombs ready on intercontinental launchers to plunge right in the heart of Washington, no ?

Part of the reason for invading Iraq was to stop Saddam's butchery. It may not have been the main reason, but it was there.
 
  • #103
JohnDubYa said:
Fear of communism oppression of others, actually.

So fear of oppression by dictators in South America was no issue, as long as they weren't communist ?
 
  • #104
JohnDubYa said:
Part of the reason for invading Iraq was to stop Saddam's butchery. It may not have been the main reason, but it was there.

Then why only Saddam ? Why not the countless butcheries in Africa ?
Come on, you cannot be serious that this was even a minor reason.
The main reasons were twofold: first of all a (miscalculated) hope of instoring several US friendly "democracies" hence ensuring US dominance over this important oil providing region (that's a neoliberal viewpoint) and second having fat recontruction contracts for Cheney and friends.

cheers,
Patrick.
 
  • #105
vanesch said:
Simply speaking, you're right. The problem is that Bush Sr. had a lot of foreign affairs policy experience, while his son didn't even knew where Afghanistan was on the map,

This is a common mistake you make here. Bush is surrounded by some of the most experienced people on politics. Are you saying that Rumsfeld and Colin Powell are not knowing what they are doing ? MMM; i think not...

marlon
 
  • #106
Then why only Saddam ? Why not the countless butcheries in Africa ?

Can't be in too many places at once. And Saddam's regime was particularly nasty. Couple that with the terrorism issue and I can see why Saddam's regime was targeted.

Come on, you cannot be serious that this was even a minor reason.

Who are you to say that I cannot be serious?

The main reasons were twofold: first of all a (miscalculated) hope of instoring several US friendly "democracies" hence ensuring US dominance over this important oil providing region (that's a neoliberal viewpoint) and second having fat recontruction contracts for Cheney and friends.

Ye olde "Bush and Cheney are evil and want to kill for oil" crap.

Oh, let me respond in your fashion: YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS?!
 
  • #107
marlon said:
This is a common mistake you make here. Bush is surrounded by some of the most experienced people on politics. Are you saying that Rumsfeld and Colin Powell are not knowing what they are doing ? MMM; i think not...

Rumsfeld is indeed not knowing what he is doing, because he, together with his adjoint what's-his-name are the originators of the neo-liberal doctrine. Or, he's knowing very well what he's doing, but he's doing this on Israel's account, I don't know.
Colin Powell did know very well what he was doing, and he was against it, remember. Only, Colin Powell is a very faithful servant, and obeyed the boss. If you read the interviews he gave around the decisional period, this is very clear.

As to the allies of Bush, I think (my opinion) that Blair was simply tricked into Bush's lies. Asnar clearly saw the opportunity to be friends with the US and obtain a lot of favors, as where others. I'm not sure about the Polish position.

cheers,
Patrick.
 
  • #108
So fear of oppression by dictators in South America was no issue, as long as they weren't communist ?

If you are looking for a foreign policy that is consistent over a span of 40 years, good luck. No country I know has been consistent. For years we heard about Switzerland's consistent desire for peace and neutrality. Wasn't the case in WWII, was it?
 
  • #109
JohnDubYa said:
Ye olde "Bush and Cheney are evil and want to kill for oil" crap.

Oh, let me respond in your fashion: YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS?!

The neoliberal policy was laid down end of the nineties, exactly as it is executed right now, and spelling out the reasons I just said. I'll try to find the public statements made back then. It is exactly this: starting with one country (Syria, or Iraq, or whatever), instoring a US-friendly democracy and hoping that a domino effect will contaminate the region. It is also clearly stated that the reason is to have stability and US dominance over the region, given its strategic position concerning oil.

The reconstruction contracts with Cheney's companies were signed just after the start of the war. As if they weren't prepared in advance!

Come on.

cheers,
Patrick.
 
  • #110
JohnDubYa said:
Fear of communism oppression of others, actually. Did anyone really think that North Korea was going to invade the US by sailing across the Pacific Ocean?
From the "Truman Doctrine" speech to Congress:
To insure the peaceful development of nations, free from coercion, the United States has taken a leading part in establishing the United Nations. The United Nations is designed to make possible lasting freedom and independence for all its members. We shall not realize our objectives, however, unless we are willing to help free peoples to maintain their free institutions and their national integrity against aggressive movements that seek to impose upon them totalitarian regimes. This is no more than a frank recognition that totalitarian regimes imposed on free peoples, by direct or indirect aggression, undermine the foundations of international peace and hence the security of the United States.
Oh for the days when Presidents were so frank about U.S. motivations... :biggrin:
 
  • #111
vanesch said:
Rumsfeld is indeed not knowing what he is doing, because he, together with his adjoint what's-his-name are the originators of the neo-liberal doctrine. Or, he's knowing very well what he's doing, but he's doing this on Israel's account, I don't know.
Colin Powell did know very well what he was doing, and he was against it, remember. Only, Colin Powell is a very faithful servant, and obeyed the boss. If you read the interviews he gave around the decisional period, this is very clear.

As to the allies of Bush, I think (my opinion) that Blair was simply tricked into Bush's lies. Asnar clearly saw the opportunity to be friends with the US and obtain a lot of favors, as where others. I'm not sure about the Polish position.

cheers,
Patrick.

hi vanesch,

it is clear that we share a very different opinion on the US-policy in Iraq. Although you do not agree with me, i have the deepest respect for you because you take the time to discuss this matter with me in a decent and rational way. It is obvious what country you come from, given your talent for diplomacy :wink: !

Yet, i do think that the criticism on Bush is very often wrong. Keep in mind that Bush does not determine the US-policy solo. He is definitely surrounded by some of the most experienced politicians both for domestic as well as for foreign policies. The argument, often heard in Europe, that the entire Bush-administration is incompetent, is a lie and shows lack of knowledge and insight into this subject. The only member I don't really know (i mean qua profession and use in the US-government) is Dick Cheney. What does he do ? What are his responsibilities.

marlon, the US-defender out here in Europe. trust me, i got a lot of work... :wink:
 
  • #112
marlon said:
marlon, the US-defender out here in Europe. trust me, i got a lot of work... :wink:

I understand now... :smile: :smile: :smile:
you want your Green Card :-)

cheers,
Patrick.
 
  • #113
vanesch said:
I understand now... :smile: :smile: :smile:
you want your Green Card :-)

cheers,
Patrick.


damn, did not realize i was THAT transparant... :biggrin:

marlon
 
  • #114
marlon said:
It is obvious what country you come from, given your talent for diplomacy :wink: !

Yet, i do think that the criticism on Bush is very often wrong.

:smile: My talent for diplomacy exists mainly in grossly exaggerating my statements :-p :-p

And of course Bush's administration is not completely incompetent. Also, despite what I said here, I do think that it is a good thing that Saddam is gone. Nevertheless, I'm convinced of 2 things: Bush made a BIG mistake by doing what he did, the way he did it (1) and he did lie about the reasons why he did it (2).

I think that using diplomatic and military pressure, building carefully a strong coalition, especially with Arab countries and carefully working its way, he'd had Saddam's head WITHOUT a fullscale war, and most importantly, without the chaos he created. It might have taken years, true. But the result would have been much more positive. The biggest damage Bush did the way he did things is that he changed all moderate opinions in the Arab world into radical views against the West. He acted as Bin Laden's biggest promotor in the region. Personally I know people who were very reasonable (a Syrian mathematician for instance) and not religious zealots at all, who were ready to go and fight against the Americans in Iraq, so strong was the insult felt by them. If you see that effect, you know how very wrong the American strategy has been. I think they underestimated GROSSLY the Arab nationalist pride.
Second, Bush's main worry was international islamist terrorism. It still is. Now, if there was one thing Saddam wasn't involved in, it was that. So he should have used all means to capture Bin Laden and consorts, instead of opening another Pandora Box.

cheers,
Patrick.
 
  • #115
. We shall not realize our objectives, however, unless we are willing to help free peoples to maintain their free institutions and their national integrity against aggressive movements that seek to impose upon them totalitarian regimes. This is no more than a frank recognition that totalitarian regimes imposed on free peoples, by direct or indirect aggression, undermine the foundations of international peace and hence the security of the United States.

In no way does this imply that the security of the United States is the only reason to challenge Communist invasion. In fact, the doctrine repeatedly points out an emotional appeal to help those that being attacked by totalitarian regimes: "... unless we are willing to help free peoples to maintain their free institutions and their national integrity against aggressive movements that seek to impose upon them totalitarian regimes."
 
  • #116
I'll try to find the public statements made back then.

I have an idea: Why don't you find the credible substantiation before you post? It makes your thoughts a little more believable and is more likely to convince readers that you are not terminally full of ****.

By the way, when you state "Cheney's companies," in what regard are you using the possessive? Are these companies owned by Dick Cheney? Is he the CEO? Clarify your statement.
 
  • #117
I think that using diplomatic and military pressure, building carefully a strong coalition, especially with Arab countries and carefully working its way, he'd had Saddam's head WITHOUT a fullscale war, and most importantly, without the chaos he created.

Your pollyanna strategy would not work. In the first Persian Gulf war we united practically the entire world, including most of the Arab states, and we gutted his army. Did we end up with Saddam's head? What would it have taken to topple Saddam at that time? You know the answer: A full scale invasion.

The next time, we amassed a huge army on the borders of Iraq. All indications were that the US was going to invade. No one doubted that Saddam's days as a leader were numbered. And in the final hours, we offered a chance for Saddam to leave the country. Did he take it?

What on Earth makes you think that he would have ever stepped down? Saddam would have mobilized every last military option against his own people before he would have stepped down. There was only one way to remove him -- military force.
 
  • #118
JohnDubYa said:
What on Earth makes you think that he would have ever stepped down? Saddam would have mobilized every last military option against his own people before he would have stepped down. There was only one way to remove him -- military force.

The very fact that the secret services of the US and others could convince several Iraqi generals NOT to fight (or just to fight symbolically and surrender) means that such a softer strategy, if applied over a longer period, could have worked. I'm not claiming that Saddam would step down. I'm claiming that with some further work, sooner or later he'd been overthrown. In the end, you could wait for his death ; maybe that'd take 10 years, so what ?

I have an idea: Why don't you find the credible substantiation before you post? It makes your thoughts a little more believable and is more likely to convince readers that you are not terminally full of ****.

The reason is that I read that in some magazines back then, but I don't have them anymore. So I'm not sure these sources are available on the net.

What I find disturbing in this whole history is that the proponents of the Irak war seem to resort to insults to those who disagree. France took a big share of the insults (which do not affect me personally too much: I'm not French, but I find it disturbing as an attitude). After all, if the proof of the pudding is the eating, you cannot say that Iraq was a big success to be proud of, no ? The official reason for the war was to diminish the islamic terrorist menace: tell me, is that goal achieved or not ? Does it look like being achieved in the near future ? All predictions of those against the war came out, except for one: the official war was over more quickly than expected, and the reason was that some generals of the Iraqi army betrayed their country. So the reasoning of the opponents of the war is not that silly, even if you can disagree on it.


cheers,
patrick.

EDIT: some moderated views are expressed here for example:
http://www.weltverschwoerung.de/redaktion/artikel.php?id=6
 
Last edited:
  • #119
JohnDubYa said:
In no way does this imply that the security of the United States is the only reason to challenge Communist invasion. In fact, the doctrine repeatedly points out an emotional appeal to help those that being attacked by totalitarian regimes: "... unless we are willing to help free peoples to maintain their free institutions and their national integrity against aggressive movements that seek to impose upon them totalitarian regimes."
:smile: I see you couldn't stand to leave in the part of the quote that talks approvingly of the UN and the US' role in founding it...

Also, if you feel it necessary to base an argument on just one part of a quoted sentence, where the complete sentence pretty much makes the opposite point, it's generally best not to also include the complete sentence in your post. :wink: The full sentence reads:
"We shall not realize our objectives, however, unless we are willing to help free peoples to maintain their free institutions and their national integrity against aggressive movements that seek to impose upon them totalitarian regimes." [Emphasis added]
The above is even more true when the document being quoted has sections that would make your point better, e.g.:
"When forces of liberation entered Greece they found that the retreating Germans had destroyed virtually all the railways, roads, port facilities, communications, and merchant marine. More than a thousand villages had been burned. Eighty-five percent of the children were tubercular. Livestock, poultry, and draft animals had almost disappeared. Inflation had wiped out practically all savings. As a result of these tragic conditions, a militant minority, exploiting human want and misery, was able to create political chaos which, until now, has made economic recovery impossible."
This is all beside the point however. The emotional appeals are more or less window dressing. Truman knows perfectly well a sentimental argument isn't going to win the support of congress. The real argument starts with:
"I am fully aware of the broad implications involved if the United States extends assistance to Greece and Turkey, and I shall discuss these implications with you at this time."
After this point, emotional statements are consistently punctuated with references to national security and what is now called the domino theory. This is true of the original quote I gave, and equally true of Truman's concluding statement:
"The seeds of totalitarian regimes are nurtured by misery and want. They spread and grow in the evil soil of poverty and strife. They reach their full growth when the hope of a people for a better life has died. We must keep that hope alive.

The free peoples of the world look to us for support in maintaining their freedoms. If we falter in our leadership, we may endanger the peace of the world -- and we shall surely endanger the welfare of our own nation."
None of this is a statement about Truman's motives—I just note that he skillfully renders his argument in a fashion suited to the context and subject. I don't have a good enough sense of US politics at the time to judge whether his success with this particular policy was due more to that skill, or to the overall idea being "in the air" at the time.

Also, nothing I have said is intended to imply that sympathy for an invaded or oppressed people is not a worthy reason for action, just that it's not the type of reasoning that would have driven US foreign policy in the mid 20th century.

So far your statements here have mostly conveyed a strange taste for sentimental policy arguments, and a fairly foggy perception of the Cold War mindset. Neither of these impressions seem especially likely to be accurate—you are welcome to correct them.
 
  • #120
I see you couldn't stand to leave in the part of the quote that talks approvingly of the UN and the US' role in founding it...

And I see that you butchered the entire context of Truman's speech by omitting the first umpteenth paragraphs. Truman was asking for economic aid for Greece, and made appeal after appeal based on our emotional willingness to help other countries in distress. To turn his Doctrine into a utilitarian, self-centered manifesto is disingeneous.
 

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