The physics behind an electric motor and induced emf?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the physics of electric motors, specifically focusing on the interaction between electric currents and magnetic fields, the concept of induced electromotive force (emf), and the mechanics of back emf in motor operation. Participants explore theoretical aspects, practical implications, and the relationship between motors and generators.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the magnetic field created by the current in the motor interferes with the existing magnetic field.
  • Another participant asserts that the field produced by the current does not affect the interaction with an externally applied magnetic field, referencing the equation relating force on a current to the external field.
  • It is noted that the change in magnetic flux occurs due to the motion of the coils and/or changing current, which induces a back emf across the motor's windings.
  • A participant raises a question about the direction of the back emf in relation to the original current and whether they travel in the same or different paths.
  • One participant suggests conceptualizing the magnetic fields as coming from permanent magnets rather than electromagnets, emphasizing the distinction between motors and generators in terms of energy conversion.
  • It is explained that a motor converts electrical energy into mechanical energy, while a generator converts mechanical energy into electrical energy, with both processes involving changing magnetic flux and induced emf.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the role of the magnetic field produced by the current and the nature of back emf. There is no consensus on these points, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the specifics of how these concepts interact.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not fully addressed the assumptions regarding the definitions of magnetic fields, the nature of currents, and the operational conditions of motors and generators. The discussion reflects varying interpretations of these concepts.

ConfPhysics
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I am having trouble understanding a process in the electric motor. using this website as a frame of reference (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/mothow.html), as an electric current is passed into that magnetic field, shouldn't the current also be creating a magnetic field, and does that magnetic field interfere with the magnetic field already present?

Also when the coil in the magnetic field begins spinning is that what is causing the change in magnetic flux? If so, as that flux is changing should a back emf be induced, and if so again through what medium does that back emf travel? Sorry for so many questions I appreciate any help.
 
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The field produced by the current plays no part in the interaction of a current in an externally applied magnetic field. Note the equation relating the force on a current to the external field.

The change in the magnetic flux is changing due to the motion of the coils in the rotor and/or the changing current and this does produce a back emf. This back emf is across the windings of the motor. This emf is a real issue for motor with a large inductance . When you turn off the motor the back emf can be so large as to cause an arc across the switch or even the windings.
 
gleem said:
The field produced by the current plays no part in the interaction of a current in an externally applied magnetic field. Note the equation relating the force on a current to the external field.

The change in the magnetic flux is changing due to the motion of the coils in the rotor and/or the changing current and this does produce a back emf. This back emf is across the windings of the motor. This emf is a real issue for motor with a large inductance . When you turn off the motor the back emf can be so large as to cause an arc across the switch or even the windings.

Does the back emf travel in the opposite direction as the original current, literally reducing it, or do they travel in different paths?
 
ConfPhysics:

First of all, to eliminate any thinking about counter effects of currents, I ask that you stop thinking of the north and south poles shown in the figure as coming from an electromanget excited by some current and instead think of them as being permanent magnet and that's it...no wires, no current...i.e., a permanent magnet motor.

O.k., then...now, keep the following two things in mind:

A motor is a device that converts electric (current) energy into mechanical (rotational) energy.
A generator is a device that converts mechanical (rotational) energy into electric energy.

If we want to talk about a motor, we need a source of emf to inject a current. We inject this current into the wire loop which produces a magnetic field of its own...the direction of this magnetic field is such that when interacting with the existing one together they produce a torque on the wire making it spin. And, yes, once the loop is rotating, it will experience a changing flux which will induce an emf which will oppose the source emf being used to push the current in the first place.

If we want to talk about a generator, then, using the exact same figure and device, we "inject" mechanical (rotational) energy to the shaft of the wire loop, once rotating, it will experience a change in magnetic flux that will produce an emf and you will be able to get a current out of the wire loop if you connect a load to it. If you apply the right-hand-rule, you should notice that the current induced in the wire loop produces a magnetic field that when interacting with the existing one produces a torque that opposes the external torque being injected into the shaft.
 

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