The uncertainity principle, a new take?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around interpretations of the uncertainty principle in quantum mechanics, particularly whether it is fundamentally about measurement or inherent to the nature of quantum phenomena. Participants explore claims made in a linked article and debate the implications of these claims.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the validity of claims made in an article about the uncertainty principle, suggesting they may be bold and not widely accepted.
  • Others argue that the article presents a legitimate perspective, emphasizing that careful measurement can yield better results while still adhering to the uncertainty principle.
  • A participant asserts that the uncertainty principle is a standard description in physics and not a new or bold claim.
  • There is a contention regarding the interpretation of quantum mechanics, with some suggesting that certain interpretations do not align with the quantum nature of reality.
  • Another participant emphasizes that all interpretations of quantum mechanics yield the same predictions for observable quantities, suggesting that the uncertainty principle is a fundamental limit of nature rather than a measurement artifact.
  • One participant discusses the double-slit experiment as a way to illustrate the fundamental nature of the uncertainty principle, arguing that it demonstrates the principle's independence from measurement technology.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the uncertainty principle and its interpretations, indicating that multiple competing views remain without a clear consensus.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various interpretations of quantum mechanics, including deterministic theories, and highlight the complexity of the subject matter, suggesting that careful wording is necessary when discussing these concepts.

I2004
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http://www.livescience.com/18567-wac...principle.html

are these once again bold claims?

they are saying the uncertainty principle isn't just in measurement but in the very nature of the quantum. It seems to be bold claims and not reperated anywhere on any other sites and certainly doesn't seem to be being touted as a big breakthrough with convincing evidence.

opinons please...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Physics news on Phys.org
Cant say your link is broken.

Is it this link?

http://www.livescience.com/23426-uncertainty-principle-measurement-disturbance.html

Having read the article it seems legit as they are posting a paper in the Physical Review Letters. It doesn't seem such a bold claim only that with more careful measurement you can get better results while still being limited by the Uncertainty principle.

Its like saying that PI to 10 digits is very accurate but with more time on a computer you can get an even better value/approximation for PI while not upsetting any math that relies on its value.
 
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I2004 said:
... the uncertainty principle isn't just in measurement but in the very nature of the quantum.

Yes, that is correct.
 
I2004 said:
http://www.livescience.com/18567-wac...principle.html

are these once again bold claims?

they are saying the uncertainty principle isn't just in measurement but in the very nature of the quantum. It seems to be bold claims and not reperated anywhere on any other sites and certainly doesn't seem to be being touted as a big breakthrough with convincing evidence.

opinons please...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

See above. The statement is correct. However it is not a bold claim, but simply the standard description. The observer measurement is a misunderstanding.
 
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phinds said:
Yes, that is correct.

your opinon, don't just say something is correct when its opinon! if it was fact this article would not be making a big deal out of something we knew, but it is...
 
I2004 said:
your opinon, don't just say something is correct when its opinon! if it was fact this article would not be making a big deal out of something we knew, but it is...

No, I was not offering that statement as an opinion, it is standard physics and has been for quite a long time.
 
phinds said:
No, I was not offering that statement as an opinion, it is standard physics and has been for quite a long time.

well in certain interpretations the world isn't quantum like so it is your opinon, you have not even read the article so how do you even know that its true!
 
didnt expect a reply lol!
 
  • #10
I read the article before my last post. You seem to have misunderstood it.

EDIT: reread post #2

2nd edit: nuts ... is that still pointing to the wrong site? I read the one you posted to on the second post of yours and THAT is the one I think you did not understand.
 
  • #11
phinds said:
I read the article before my last post. You seem to have misunderstood it.

EDIT: reread post #2

2nd edit: nuts ... is that still pointing to the wrong site? I read the one you posted to on the second post of yours and THAT is the one I think you did not understand.

it says nature is actually confirmed as quantum like at the lowest level. It is not. It is subject to interpretation i.e bohn and other determinstic theories of QM
 
  • #12
well am I right or missing something? is this unrelated to the experiement in question,

help please people...
 
  • #13
I2004 said:
it says nature is actually confirmed as quantum like at the lowest level. It is not. It is subject to interpretation i.e bohn and other determinstic theories of QM

Well, this is not an easy subject, and one has to be careful with one's wordings here! :-) There are no interpretations of quantum mechanics that are not "quantum like". All interpretations yields the same predictions for any observable quantity. Otherwise they would simply be wrong when compared with experiments.

It is true that some hidden variable-interpretations (like De Broglie-Bohm) allow particles to have well-defined locations at all times. But they are still quantum, they just hide the weirdness somewhere else. (Explicitly non-local guiding pilot-waves for example.)

The uncertainty principle is about expectationvalues of observables, and is therefor independent of which QM-interpretation you believe in. That the uncertainty principle is a fundamental limit of nature and not a limit of measurement technology is well established, and not a matter of personal opinion.

The standard Heisenberg example of a photon disturbing an electron is just an example. It is not the motivation behind the uncertainty principle. As they point out in the article you quote, this example has mislead many people. And their experimental data reinforces the full quantum mechanical calculation, again saying that this is not any bald claim (just a nice confirmation of the true principle).

I think the best way to understand the fundamental uncertainty principle is to think of the double-slit electron interference experiment. We know that any measurement of which path the electron takes destroys the interferencepattern. Also, in the two different paths the electron is deflected a slightly different angle by the wall. So the electron have to transfer different amount of momenta to the wall depending on which slit it goes through. So in principle one could find out which way the electron took by measuring the recoil momenta on the wall with high enough precision. (The wall might for example be very small and thin and suspended on low-friction wheels...) Doing the calculations, it turns out that the precision needed to gain the which-way information is precisely below the Heisenberg limit. Hence, if there was any way in principle to gain this information, we could not see any interference pattern!

In this way we see that the uncertainty principle have to be a fundamental property of nature, regardless which theory we use to describe it.
 

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