News The World Can't Wait Drive Out the Bush Regime

[TheStatutoryApe]

THere are more ways to feel unsafe than terrorism.

I learned that one of our elementary school's scientist parents is leaving the site council. I said to this man how sad I was to see him go, that we need to make sure science and health have good representation at the school.

There were three of us there, and I swear to god - we all three cast surreptitious glances around - to see if our advocacy of science had been overheard.

The religious right has me scared a hell of a lot more than anything else.

Here in CA you are worried about this, or was this somewhere else?
I wouldn't think that you'd have to worry about such things around here for the most part.

 

[outsider]

I live near one of the largest banking hubs in the usa, there is a military base 4 hours east, and no one i know shares an open mind with me. There is racism, bigotry, political unawareness is rampant, and my favorite...indifference; the exodus of individuality as we know it shows the effectiveness of media, publicity is most successful when aimed at the most massive bourgeois/lower class to reduce them down to a narrow field of personality. How could you feel safe in a land like that? It isn't an Aryan nation, but likeness of mind is strongly advocated.

One has to see beyond the fact that all seems normal, you can go see movies or visit the market and buy food etc etc. Thats normal enough, but what about the right to own arms which is increasingly being addressed by the government- what a bonus it would be to have a mentally like population which was not armed; coercion comes to mind. You can do what you want, as long as it doesn't get in the way of government's earning power, as long as it doesn't produce a chaos which was not itself started by government, and as long as you don't threaten the governments ability to control the masses- do anything besides that and you are free.

good post. indifference is rampant for sure... individuals have enough problems to worry about and rather not think about anything. talking about music, television and celebrities seems to be a much more popular topic... but I can undrstand why... this is why i don't talk politics with people around me... people will judge you for your political beliefs... if you are pro-choice, wow... or if you are for the death penalty... you get the idea... in the wrong circles you will easily be outcast and then you never know why you got fired or layed off. being indifferent is as easy as saying "whatever" or "i don't know".

The media has made everything into a popularity contest and being IN is more important than doing what's right. Reality TV supports backdoor skull duggery and conspiracies... teaching the youth of tomorrow about strategic alliances and decieving others in order to "play to win". I don't want to bring up morals, but morals are becoming obsolete. It's time to get with the program and I just want to change the channel.

THere are more ways to feel unsafe than terrorism.

The religious right has me scared a hell of a lot more than anything else.

what about how rapists are released into neighborhoods discreetly? My wife is a pretty little thing and I wouldn't let her walk our dog alone because you just never know. I don't worry about terrorists at all come to think of it... there are plenty of other more likely threats to worry about.

 

[vanesch]

My wife is a pretty little thing and I wouldn't let her walk our dog alone because you just never know.

Where exactly do you live ? When does she walk the dog usually ?

 

[outsider]

Where exactly do you live ? When does she walk the dog usually ?

haha.. your funny... how do you say... fou toi... i live in grenoble france... where Andre the Giant was from... and we always walk together... keep your frog fingers 2 yurself french fry no hijaking... respond with something relevant or I'll have to beat you with a bagette then grease it with lots of parisian butter and shove it ... up yours and then make you eat it

 

[vanesch]

respond with something relevant or I'll have to beat you with a bagette then grease it with lots of parisian butter and shove it ... up yours and then make you eat it

OUCH !

 

[Skyhunter]

One has to see beyond the fact that all seems normal, you can go see movies or visit the market and buy food etc etc. Thats normal enough, but what about the right to own arms which is increasingly being addressed by the government- what a bonus it would be to have a mentally like population which was not armed; coercion comes to mind. You can do what you want, as long as it doesn't get in the way of government's earning power, as long as it doesn't produce a chaos which was not itself started by government, and as long as you don't threaten the governments ability to control the masses- do anything besides that and you are free.

Good observations, the government doesn't make money, (well I guess literally it does) the private interests it serves make the money.

Is that why you say WW3 will be against fascism?

 

[pattylou]

Here in CA you are worried about this, or was this somewhere else?
I wouldn't think that you'd have to worry about such things around here for the most part.

I live in a red neighborhood, full of christian creationists.

There is also a large segment of scientists, as the largest employer in the city is a pharmaceutical company.

It makes for interesting interactions. One newly elected member of the school board plans to advocate a change in our science curriculum to include ID. I think he is in the minority, but the sentiment is present in more of the population than you might realize.

 

[1123581321]

Your government is openly torturing people, and justifying it.

so, that's the best way to get intel. What do you suggest, ask someone nicely to please give us information? And besides, do you have concrete proof that that happened, and i don't want abu ghraib. THat clearly wasn
t ordered by high-ups, it was a bunch of soldiers who acted on their own. Of course, i don't consider being stripped to be torture, more like embarassment.

Your government puts people in jail on the merest suspicion, refusing them lawyers, and either holding them indefinitely or deporting them in the dead of night.

The only people who don't get lawyers are people who aren't US citizens, so they don't get that right (like POWs)
And where's your proof about the deporting?

Your government is moving each day closer to a theocracy, where a narrow and hateful brand of Christian fundamentalism will rule.

You betcha!

Your government suppresses the science that doesn’t fit its religious, political and economic agenda, forcing present and future generations to pay a terrible price.

I don't know what you're talking about, i never heard a word of creatonism or any other christian theory once duering all my high school years.

Your government is moving to deny women here, and all over the world, the right to birth control and abortion.

And you are denying the newborn a chance at life.

Your government enforces a culture of greed, bigotry, intolerance and ignorance.

you're starting to sound like a bigot, and you are very intolerant to anyone who dosn't agree with you, and you are ingnorant to the facts and the rights of everyone else.

People look at all this and think of Hitler – and they are right to do so. The Bush regime is setting out to radically remake society very quickly, in a fascist way, and for generations to come. We must act now; the future is in the balance.

Yeah, bush killed millions of jews, and is a mindless fascist. Lock your door, or he might get you, too!

There is not going to be some savior from the Democratic Party. This whole idea of putting our hopes and energies into “leaders” who tell us to seek common ground with fascists and religious fanatics is proving every day to be a disaster, and actually serves to demobilize people.

That's because people are growing wise to the Democratic parties talking points, and don't fall for them anymore. if you want to win, you should get some real issues and quit being a fanatic.

But silence and paralysis are NOT acceptable. That which you will not resist and mobilize to stop, you will learn – or be forced – to accept. There is no escaping it: the whole disastrous course of this Bush regime must be STOPPED. And we must take the responsibility to do it.

You get 'em, tiger!

And there is a way. We are talking about something on a scale that can really make a huge change in this country and in the world. We need more than fighting Bush’s outrages one at a time, constantly losing ground to the whole onslaught. We must, and can, aim to create a political situation where the Bush regime’s program is repudiated, where Bush himself is driven from office, and where the whole direction he has been taking society is reversed. We, in our millions, must and can take responsibility to change the course of history.

Just watch for the guys in black suits when they come to take you away.

To that end, on November 2, the first anniversary of Bush’s “re-election”, we will take the first major step in this by organizing a truly massive day of resistance all over this country. People everywhere will walk out of school, they will take off work, they will come to the downtowns and town squares and set out from there, going through the streets and calling on many more to JOIN US. They will repudiate this criminal regime, making a powerful statement: “NO! THIS REGIME DOES NOT REPRESENT US! AND WE WILL DRIVE IT OUT!”

And everyone else will have a good time laughing at you!

This will not be easy. If we speak the truth, they will try to silence us. If we act, they will try to stop us. But we speak for the majority, here and around the world, and as we get this going we are going to reach out to the people who have been so badly fooled by Bush and we are NOT going to stop.

I guess we'll see on november 2 just how big you are, comrade. Are you planning to be the chairman, or the head of the politiburo?

The point is this: history is full of examples where people who had right on their side fought against tremendous odds and were victorious. And it is also full of examples of people passively hoping to wait it out, only to get swallowed up by a horror beyond what they ever imagined. The future is unwritten. WHICH ONE WE GET IS UP TO US.

History is also full of people like you who get quickly shut down in rebellions like this, i wish you luck.

These next two months are crucial. The call you are reading has to get out to millions right away – on the internet, passed out as flyers in communities, published as ads in newspapers. DO NOT WAIT! GET ORGANIZED! If you agree with this statement, add your name to it! And do more than that: send it to friends, get them to sign it, organize a meeting, take it to your church, your school, your union, your health club, your barber shop, to concerts and libraries and family gatherings, everywhere you go. Raise money, lots of money. Get people together, make plans to be there on November 2, and to build for it. GET IN TOUCH WITH US AT OUR WEBSITE, http://worldcantwait.org

Please, hurry! The fate of the world depends on you! if we can't stop bush, he will eat you first born! He is evil encarnate!

Initiating signers of this call include:

Mumia Abu-Jamal, political prisoner and radio commentator
William Blum, author of Rogue State
Prof B. Robert Franza, MD, author of Control of Human Retrovirus Gene Expression
Nina Felshin, author of But Is It Art: The Spirit of Art as Activism
Margot Harry, author of Attention MOVE! This is America
C. Clark Kissinger, Revolution newspaper and initiator of Not In Our Name statement
Travis Morales, Revolutionary Communist Party, San Francisco Bay Area
Jeremy Pikser, screenwriter [Bulworth]
Frances Fox Piven, author of Regulating the Poor
Ralph Poynter, community activist
Michael Steven Smith, National Lawyers Guild-NY
Lynne Stewart, criminal defense attorney
Sunsara Taylor, Revolution newspaper

Mumia abu-jamal killed a cop, i don't see you saying that anywhere! He's a criminal, so quit feeding be that bull that he's a political prisonor. That proves to me that your cause will fail miserably.


Funny, I didn't see Jane Fonda or George Sorros or even Teddy Kennedy on there, are you too liberal for them?

You are truly laughable, and nothing more. While i do think that there are better leaders than bush, he is not nearly as bad as you think (or were told.) Gore or Kerry wern't better, so i guess that means that the dems need to find some fresh blood to run, or they won't win. Hillary in 08! see how far you go with her!


Fibonacci

 

[Skyhunter]

WOW! Now I truly understand the addage "never argue with an idiot"

I really can't tell the difference in post #108.

[edit] I tried rereading it still don't see a difference.

 

[1123581321]

Bush sure is a Nazi. At least he definitely would have been a nazi if he had lived in the thirties and forties in Germany. I doubt they would have let him advance very far, they used to execute the mentally retarded. Still, he enjoys conservative politics, ethnic and religious scapegoating, war crimes, propaganda, and invading defenseless countries. ****, he's killed a couple of hundred thousand Iraqis and he's using hatred of Muslims to support the deaths, rapes and torturing of them. Just the kind of stuff Hitler used to do. And I'll bet if he had the chance he'd wipe out the lot of them. In fact, the only thing standing in his way is liberals, God bless them.

Yeah, bush rapes muslims because he hates 'em. Saddam had muslims raped and killed, you didn't complain about it then. How can you say he would've been a nazi! I guess just the same way that i can say you'd be a hippie in the 60s or a communist supporting Josef Stallin when he sent millions to their deaths.

Ten commandments, anti-gay legistlature, ban on stem cells, bans on abortion, Creationism... Hell, Creationism is enough. How anybody can post on a message board dedicated to science and support the nut that wants Creationism taught in public schools is beyond me. That's real Taliban kind of bull****.

If you would take the time to reade them, you would realize that they are a good moral guideline, not just something religious. And what about the rights of christians, who are the overwhelming majority in america! You can't simply care about everyone elses rights but disregard the MAJORITY!

Jose Padilla. American citizen. Three years in a Navy brig. No trial. No charges.

I agree with you, they should charge him. but it dosn't proove the deportion thing.

Two and possibly three branches of the government are moving to curtail birth control and abortions. The attempts to ban abortions are obvious, it's laughable to deny them. The government is resisting attempts to have over-the-counter emergency contraception, despite recommendations of FDA scientists. They're pushing abstinence in schools along with creationism. They're withholding aid to third world countries if birth control is involved.

Again, what about the rights of the unborn, is it fair to forget them just because they wern't born yet!

How did Bush win? Let's see. He lied and started a war for his own personal profit. He spend millions of dollars slandering a war hero's record. He appealed to hatred towards homosexuals.

Yeah, his own profit. That's why he isn't any richer and dosn't have any more power than he did before. How was he a war hero, what did he do? got some medals? Did he earn them? i doubt it, the majority of the people who served with him say he didn't earn them. did you serve with Kerry?

 

[1123581321]

WOW! Now I truly understand the addage "never argue with an idiot"

I really can't tell the difference in post #108.

[edit] I tried rereading it still don't see a difference.

That's because you refuse to think.

 

[Skyhunter]

That's because you refuse to think.

is that like the pot calling the opium dope?

 

[pattylou]

Again, what about the rights of the unborn, is it fair to forget them just because they wern't born yet!

Ya know, if you were to open up a dialog with people who are pro-choice, you might be surprised at just how reasonable they are. And you might also be surprised at the complexities of the issue, it's not like women who are 6 months pregnant with a healthy fetus wake up one more morning and decide to pop round the local abortion clinic because they changed their mind. Despite what sorts of prolife propaganda you've been fed, with images of whatever they use to incite your holy wrath.

You might consider that the people around you *think* about these issues, perhaps even longer and harder than you do, in some cases.

 

[1123581321]

Take the time to think about what i said in that post, and what red winter or whatever his name said, and if you don't believe what i said, then come up with good, solid arguements that back up that psyco and his revolution.

 

[pattylou]

...that psyco and his revolution

Aren't personal attacks against the rules?

I didn't see much of an argument from your post. He said:

Quote:
Two and possibly three branches of the government are moving to curtail birth control and abortions. The attempts to ban abortions are obvious, it's laughable to deny them. The government is resisting attempts to have over-the-counter emergency contraception, despite recommendations of FDA scientists. They're pushing abstinence in schools along with creationism. They're withholding aid to third world countries if birth control is involved.

You responded:

Again, what about the rights of the unborn, is it fair to forget them just because they wern't born yet!

And frankly, I wouldn't know where to start, in order to address your response. It's rather a catch all ideology than a well constructed argument, isn't it? He's mentioning birth control, and how our government is working against it in third world countries, and you are being reactionary and saying "Unborn babies! Unborn babies!"

Are you aware that many babies in third world countries die, because their mothers can't provide food, or sometimes even milk for them? Are you aware that efforts to provide formula, etc, leave the babies susceptible to diseases (no antibodies)? Are you aware that it is hard to work and make any income at all when you are poor, hungry, pregnant, giving birth, or caring for a newborn? Are you aware that as a society becomes healthier and moves out of poverty, that birth rates fall naturally and that infant mortality falls even more quickly?

The original point was that *birth control* is less and less available. (The secondary point which requires a separate discussion, relates to abortion.)

What aspect of this complex issue would you like me to construct an argument about? Could you do me the favor of constructing a solid argument for your position, first? Otherwise your request is a bit unreasonable.

Here are some references to get you started.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12288332&dopt=Abstract

(this is an abstract, but you should be able to find the full paper based on the citation.)

http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/ib_2-02.html

 

[Smurf]

Where exactly do you live ? When does she walk the dog usually ?

And what does she wear when walking it?

 

[1123581321]

Ya know, if you were to open up a dialog with people who are pro-choice, you might be surprised at just how reasonable they are. And you might also be surprised at the complexities of the issue, it's not like women who are 6 months pregnant with a healthy fetus wake up one more morning and decide to pop round the local abortion clinic because they changed their mind. Despite what sorts of prolife propaganda you've been fed, with images of whatever they use to incite your holy wrath.

You might consider that the people around you *think* about these issues, perhaps even longer and harder than you do, in some cases.

What are you trying to say, that a poor person who can't afford a child needs it?
That a rape victim would need an abortion?
That it would be better if a deformed child should be "mercy killed"



Fibonacci

 

[1123581321]

Are you aware that many babies in third world countries die, because their mothers can't provide food, or sometimes even milk for them? Are you aware that efforts to provide formula, etc, leave the babies susceptible to diseases (no antibodies)? Are you aware that it is hard to work and make any income at all when you are poor, hungry, pregnant, giving birth, or caring for a newborn?

If you can't afford a child, don't have sex.

Are you aware that as a society becomes healthier and moves out of poverty, that birth rates fall naturally and that infant mortality falls even more quickly?

Yes, and how will having abortions help people get out of poverty?

 

[vanesch]

Again, what about the rights of the unborn, is it fair to forget them just because they wern't born yet!

From what moment on does an unborn have rights ? What exactly gives it rights ? I mean, should it have a heart ? A brain ?

 

[1123581321]

From what moment on does an unborn have rights ? What exactly gives it rights ? I mean, should it have a heart ? A brain ?

Lets put it this way, if you were an unborn child, when would you like to have rights? A human is a human no matter how old he/she is.

fibonacci

 

[pattylou]

If you can't afford a child, don't have sex.


Yes, and how will having abortions help people get out of poverty?

Again, this does not consitute a coherent argument.

I think the lack of substance in your response does more harm to your position than you may realize. You failed to acknowledge anything I said, merely repeated your "unborn babies" reactionism without any statistics, analysis, or understanding of the underlying issues.

And you completely missed the point that I am arguing, which has to do with providing birth control to developing countries, not abortion. Except possibly with your "don't have sex" "solution." Shall we talk about the effects of culture, and rape?

Thank you for helping to illustrate the lack of intelligent thought on the part of the pro-lifers.

 

[pattylou]

Lets put it this way, if you were an unborn child, when would you like to have rights?

This is easy to answer. The "desire" of an unborn baby to have rights could not happen any sooner than a fetus's ability to have "desire."

Thus, we can agree that if the nervous system has not developed, that it is ok to abort.

Thus, it is ok to provide morning after pills.

Do I understand your "well-constructed argument" correctly?

 

[Smurf]

one of the main reasons abortion is only legal in the first trimester is because after that the baby develops the ability to feel pain.

 

[1123581321]

The bottom line is, its wrong to kill, period. The only way it is justified is if you kill to save your self or another.

 

[faust9]

Lets put it this way, if you were an unborn child, when would you like to have rights? A human is a human no matter how old he/she is.

fibonacci

According to you. Not all cultures believe what you believe. A human isn't a human until god breaths life into it. Until such life has been breathed into the newborn(remember, there is no guarantee that an unborn child will survive child birth) that fetus is just a part of the mother---like a finger or a toe---and can be removed if it threatens the life or well being of the mother. How dare you try to impose your beliefs upon me. How dare you! And how dare you try and impose your beliefe system on a poor mother who doesn't know she has the right to refuse sex. How dare you minimize the suffering of the poor like that. How dare you criticize from such an ignorant pearch---when was the last time you were in a truly poor nation? What's next, another crusade. "We'll convert those hethans to our belief system or kill them in the process..."

 

[faust9]

The bottom line is, its wrong to kill, period. The only way it is justified is if you kill to save your self or another.

So I take it you're against capital punishment?

 

[vanesch]

Lets put it this way, if you were an unborn child, when would you like to have rights? A human is a human no matter how old he/she is.

Is it a human before it was conceived ? Are spermatozoida and egg cells humans ?
Is it the fecondated cell that is a human ?
4 cells ?
8 cells ?

 

[vanesch]

The bottom line is, its wrong to kill, period. The only way it is justified is if you kill to save your self or another.

Is it ok to spit ?

 

[Emieno]

Are you aware that many babies in third world countries die, because their mothers can't provide food, or sometimes even milk for them?

No, recent data show it:s different, not so many as you may be thinking...
What you are referring to was an over-12-year-ago thingys!

 

[1123581321]

So I take it you're against capital punishment?

Yes.
I actually think life in prison would be worse than death.

 

[1123581321]

Is it a human before it was conceived ? Are spermatozoida and egg cells humans ?

No

Is it the fecondated cell that is a human ?
4 cells ?
8 cells ?

Yes

 

[vanesch]

No



Yes

Ok, then I repeat my question: is it ok to spit ?

 

[DM]

Thank you for helping to illustrate the lack of intelligent thought on the part of the pro-lifers.

Are you a pro-choice individual?

 

[DM]

From what moment on does an unborn have rights ? What exactly gives it rights ? I mean, should it have a heart ? A brain ?

I'm curious Vanesch, what is this suppose to imply? Are you a pro-choice individual as well?

 

[faust9]

I'm curious Vanesch, what is this suppose to imply? Are you a pro-choice individual as well?

Does it matter?

 

[pattylou]

Fibonacci, tell me, why is it OK to kill in self defense? Can you find a biblical reference that says it is OK? I am unaware of any. In fact, I recall some biblical references that state quite the opposite.

 

[pattylou]

The bottom line is, its wrong to kill, period. The only way it is justified is if you kill to save your self or another.

So, contraception is OK?

 

[pattylou]

No, recent data show it:s different, not so many as you may be thinking...
What you are referring to was an over-12-year-ago thingys!

Yes, I know. I was curious if Fibonacci is up on any of the current numbers.

Apparently not.

 

[pattylou]

Are you a pro-choice individual?

My answer may surprise you.

Please describe pro choice, and I am also curious why you ask, or why it is relevant? I'd prefer to answer your question after I know what you mean by "pro choice."

 

[1123581321]

Fibonacci, tell me, why is it OK to kill in self defense? Can you find a biblical reference that says it is OK? I am unaware of any. In fact, I recall some biblical references that state quite the opposite.

55. This should not cause surprise: to kill a human being, in whom the image of God is present, is a particularly serious sin. Only God is the master of life! Yet from the beginning, faced with the many and often tragic cases which occur in the life of individuals and society, Christian reflection has sought a fuller and deeper understanding of what God's commandment prohibits and prescribes. 43 There are in fact situations in which values proposed by God's Law seem to involve a genuine paradox. This happens for example in the case of legitimate defence, in which the right to protect one's own life and the duty not to harm someone else's life are difficult to reconcile in practice. Certainly, the intrinsic value of life and the duty to love oneself no less than others are the basis of a true right to self-defence. The demanding commandment of love of neighbour, set forth in the Old Testament and confirmed by Jesus, itself presupposes love of oneself as the basis of comparison: "You shall love your neighbour as yourself " (Mk 12:31). Consequently, no one can renounce the right to self-defence out of lack of love for life or for self. This can only be done in virtue of a heroic love which deepens and transfigures the love of self into a radical self-offering, according to the spirit of the Gospel Beatitudes (cf. Mt 5:38-40). The sublime example of this self-offering is the Lord Jesus himself.

Moreover, "legitimate defence can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another's life, the common good of the family or of the State".44 Unfortunately it happens that the need to render the aggressor incapable of causing harm sometimes involves taking his life. In this case, the fatal outcome is attributable to the aggressor whose action brought it about, even though he may not be morally responsible because of a lack of the use of reason. 45

http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0141/__PP.HTM

 

[outsider]

This thread has been hijacked... if you want to start an abortion thread, please do...

 

[1123581321]

So, contraception is OK?

anything that stops the egg from being fertalized is ok with me.

 

[1123581321]

This thread has been hijacked... if you want to start an abortion thread, please do...

if you read the first post by redwinter, he mentions abortion. we are simply discussing that part of the thread.

 

[pattylou]

http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0141/__PP.HTM

Thank you, Fib.

I must say, this has some direct contradictions in it:

"Only God is the master of life!" vs. "the right to protect one's own life."

Why do you believe you have the right to protect your life?

Outsider: Sorry about the hijacking. Abortion *was* one of the issues in the initial post. The post was so long, and had so many issues, that it would be impossible to discuss any of them at length without seemingly going "off topic," IMO.

 

[1123581321]

I believe that i have that right because i value my life more than the life of someone who is trying to kill me, as do most people. I will always try to find a way to protect myself without using leathal force, but i won't hesitate if i need to, even if it would say in the Bible that i shouldn't (which, as you pointed out, the bible isn't clear on).

 

[outsider]

if you read the first post by redwinter, he mentions abortion. we are simply discussing that part of the thread.

fair enough.. in that case...

a fetus relies completely on the mother for it's life. without the mother, the fetus does not have life and cannot survive. it does not have a mind of it's own and is unable to make decisions. It is not a being unto itself until separated from the umbilical cord. Therefore the baby is actually a part of the mother's biology. It is her body and her decision.

it is seldom that any woman who has carried a fetus for more than 2 months would change their minds about abortion (unless the baby was created under false pretence to keep a man or something like that). The fetus has no rights. The person who has the right to decide if they want to carry an extra 30-60lbs for 9 months is the mother. No one else has the right to force her to go through all the pain.

poor people are generally less responsible hence is what keeps them poor... therefore the are likely to have accidents. These poor folk have a hard time supporting themselves, what would make one think that they will do much better with a child? (I'm not saying that its impossible, just improbable). I think growing up poor is great suffering for these children and often poverty is perpetuated due to the preoccupation with their circumstances. Becoming motivated to go to school and excelling is very rare as these children do not have the support systems at home the same as children of average homes.

I can give a shoit what god or dog has to say about it... we are in a new era that allows for people to make this choice for themselves. people want to have sex... no matter if they can afford it or not... forcing them to have a child they cannot afford will likely destroy their relationship, and stack the odds against the child in life.

i'd like to know if YOU are having any sex? And if not, is it by choice or due to your circumstances?

 

[1123581321]

poor people are generally less responsible hence is what keeps them poor... therefore the are likely to have accidents. These poor folk have a hard time supporting themselves, what would make one think that they will do much better with a child? (I'm not saying that its impossible, just improbable). I think growing up poor is great suffering for these children and often poverty is perpetuated due to the preoccupation with their circumstances. Becoming motivated to go to school and excelling is very rare as these children do not have the support systems at home the same as children of average homes.

Accidents? you say it like they have no control over themselves.

I can give a shoit what god or dog has to say about it... we are in a new era that allows for people to make this choice for themselves. people want to have sex... no matter if they can afford it or not... forcing them to have a child they cannot afford will likely destroy their relationship, and stack the odds against the child in life.

If they need to have sex so bad, then they can use condoms or put babies up for adoption.

i'd like to know if YOU are having any sex? And if not, is it by choice or due to your circumstances?

Yeah, i'll publish info like that on the internet.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I'm sory but I think the abortion discussion is rather a moot. Vanesch brought up the point "When does a fetus become a human with rights?" So far neither side really can make a definitive case for itself though good cases they may be. Since the pro-lifers are the ones that want to create a law taking away someone's right to undergo a certain medical procedure the burden of proof is on them(in my opinion). Since this proof can not be satisfactorily established then I do not believe a law should be put in place regarding the medical procedure. Again my opinion. Though we may argue how well such a proof has been established, which seems to only show that it hasn't been, I doubt we will argue that no such law should be put in place until such time as the proof has been established.
I have my own feelings on abortion but I do not let them cloud the issue of other's opinions and rights.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I do agree with you though Fib that people should be more responsable about their sex lives and that adoption should be preferable to abortion.

 

[Evo]

Accidents? you say it like they have no control over themselves.

If they need to have sex so bad, then they can use condoms or put babies up for adoption.


Yeah, i'll publish info like that on the internet.

I've pretty much decided to stay out of this kind of discussion because it goes nowhere, but 1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21 there is no perfect form of birth control. The most responsible of people may still have an accident. They may not be ready to have a child and I am in full support of first trimester abortions for any reason. I am in full support of abortion in later trimesters for medical & psychological reasons.

I have to ask how many unwanted children you have adopted, or if you're too young, how many you plan to adopt? It's so easy to tell people how to live their lives, not so easy to put your money where your mouth is.

Also, there is no way adoption would be a viable alternative to abortion, are you aware of the numbers?