News The World Can't Wait Drive Out the Bush Regime

[TheStatutoryApe]

Looking from the outside that's also a bit the fear of many people of what's happening there. But you do have a problem: after all, the US is still a democratic system on paper. So why don't you play the game ? Start a political party ? If you think that the great majority of all citizens were disenfranchized with the two traditional parties, "there's a market to take". And honestly this debate over a few votes of who finally won or not doesn't matter. Does it really matter whether the leader represents 49.5% or 50.5% of the population ? He represents about half of it. This is not like a dictator whose true support is 5% and who claims to be elected by 95%.
Because ousting an administration is one thing, but what comes in place ? You ?

Good points Vanesch.

Redwinter, my questions still remain unanswered. How do you mean to pull this off. Do you really think that making a ruckus is going to accomplish much?

And welcome to PF by the way.

 

[Lisa!]

I think Bin Laden would hide in the US this time, so Bush will have to attack US!

 

[russ_watters]

We need to organize a movement based on the same kind of "people power" that drove out the Ferdinand Marcos regime in the Phillippines a few years back -- mass resistance in all fields of society and culture.

You're still throwing around emotionally charged words without factual basis, though at the very least, you are implying things that are factually inaccurate ("Nazi" was only one example - as others pointed out, what you said about Abu Graib is factually wrong), but this clarifies things - you're talking about a coup. Sorry, but that just ain't how we do things in the US. I hope you can see how such a thing would badly and permanently damage the country. If you can't, I submit you lack an understanding of what the US is.

 

[vanesch]

you're talking about a coup. Sorry, but that just ain't how we do things in the US. I hope you can see how such a thing would badly and permanently damage the country. If you can't, I submit you lack an understanding of what the US is.

I agree with Russ here: the remedy (a coup and as such the end of the democratic system in the US) is worse than the illness (Attila the Hun in the white house ). It is in fact what I think Bush did wrong too (let's for a moment pretend that his goals were noble): the remedy (screw international law, provoque chaos etc...) were worse than the illness (some mad dictator in a country somewhere far away).

 

[Skyhunter]

I don't recall where it came from. I do recall that googling 36% approval Bush, will pull it up as one of the first hits. Particularly in Google News.

The issue isn't whether he will be elected in 2008. I'd guess he won't run. The issue is how low can he go, what effect can this have on everything from global opinion of America to the 2006 elections to how the Christian right may suffer as a result of his ratings.

I suppose there may be ramifications for Jeb, as well, in a 2012 bid. But that's getting increasingly speculative. The electorate seems to have a short attention span, and rightly try not to hold one person responsible for another's actions.

The 36% is support for his handling of the iraq "struggle".

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/client/act_dsp_pdf.cfm?name=mr050826-1tb.pdf&id=2761

About the same as the number of people who believe in UFO's.

 

[pattylou]

The 36% is support for his handling of the iraq "struggle".

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/client/act_dsp_pdf.cfm?name=mr050826-1tb.pdf&id=2761

About the same as the number of people who believe in UFO's.

Maybe, but it also is a general approval rating.

I googled for it - it's an ARG poll.

http://basie.blogspot.com/2005/08/bush-approval-tanks-falls-to-36.html

 

[russ_watters]

I agree with Russ here: the remedy (a coup and as such the end of the democratic system in the US) is worse than the illness (Attila the Hun in the white house ). It is in fact what I think Bush did wrong too (let's for a moment pretend that his goals were noble): the remedy (screw international law, provoque chaos etc...) were worse than the illness (some mad dictator in a country somewhere far away).

There is one caveat, of course: if a person actually believes that Bush intends to end the rule of democracy in the US, then it might be worth it to stage a coup. It'd be a tough sell, though, unless he actually did refuse to cede power in 3.5 years.

 

[oldunion]

I agree with Russ here: the remedy (a coup and as such the end of the democratic system in the US) is worse than the illness (Attila the Hun in the white house ). It is in fact what I think Bush did wrong too (let's for a moment pretend that his goals were noble): the remedy (screw international law, provoque chaos etc...) were worse than the illness (some mad dictator in a country somewhere far away).

Well i think you misunderstand why a coup would be staged and by who. I believe staging a coup would require more organization than exists in the usa right now, the reason the usa is still around is because of its military and increasingly fascist tendencies.

But if a coup was staged with such high organization, i doubt that anyone would stand for a dictator's rule. Although there would be a risk inherent in a coup of this scenario coming to reality, a revolution staged by people may result in general leadership, communism if you will.

The revolution could also be gradual, however; take over the government and continue to allow subsystems to operate until they can be converted.

This is all very dangerous, because revolutions are the thing of fanatacism or the result of being pushed too hard. Czarist russia was very bad, the usa is not at that point right now.

 

[Burnsys]

Well i think you misunderstand why a coup would be staged and by who. I believe staging a coup would require more organization than exists in the usa right now, the reason the usa is still around is because of its military and increasingly fascist tendencies.

But if a coup was staged with such high organization, i doubt that anyone would stand for a dictator's rule. Although there would be a risk inherent in a coup of this scenario coming to reality, a revolution staged by people may result in general leadership, communism if you will.

The revolution could also be gradual, however; take over the government and continue to allow subsystems to operate until they can be converted.

This is all very dangerous, because revolutions are the thing of fanatacism or the result of being pushed too hard. Czarist russia was very bad, the usa is not at that point right now.

We had some of those here in argentina , we overtrown 3 presidents, in 2 weeks with masive mobilizations, of about 1.000.000 , clashes with the police, 24 deaths. we burnt foreing banks, mc donalds, and everything which was from an imperialistic country...

This a brief history of what hapened during the crisis:
http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2004/23.html

 

[russ_watters]

Well i think you misunderstand why a coup would be staged and by who. I believe staging a coup would require more organization than exists in the usa right now, the reason the usa is still around is because of its military and increasingly fascist tendencies.

Just to make this perfectly clear, did you just say that the only reason that the US is still together right now is because the military holds it together?

Also, from your name, location, and the above comment, am I correct to infer that you believe the "Civil War" was an unjust war of agression waged by the United States on an already separate country?

 

[Skyhunter]

Just to make this perfectly clear, did you just say that the only reason that the US is still together right now is because the military holds it together?

Also, from your name, location, and the above comment, am I correct to infer that you believe the "Civil War" was an unjust war of agression waged by the United States on an already separate country?

To quote George Carlin

I believe the south was just another minority that got screwed by the US governement.

I believe that the majority of the social problems in this country today trace their roots back to the civil war. Don't get me wrong, I don't support slavery, but we didn't solve the problems associated with slavery with the war. It wasn't until the civil rights movement 100 years later that we seriously began to address the racial and social inequalities that existed and still are exist today to a lesser extent.

The civil war and it's aftermath, ie the amendments to the constitution created the income tax and gave corporations the same rights as individuals.

Slavery is the legal fiction that a person is property. Corporate personhood is the legal fiction that property is a person.

 

[oldunion]

Just to make this perfectly clear, did you just say that the only reason that the US is still together right now is because the military holds it together?

Also, from your name, location, and the above comment, am I correct to infer that you believe the "Civil War" was an unjust war of agression waged by the United States on an already separate country?

upon reading what i wrote i would put it in this order: because people can make a lot of money and will stand to lose it if this country goes under, because of increasingly fascist tendencies, because of the military/police/agencies.

my name is related to the Soviet Union of old, it was a just war, and I am from the Philadelphia region. although I am sure you could get the answer you want from some people around here, seems some of them have replaced their brains with a binary program that just spits out republican rhetoric and bigotry every 45 minutes.

interesting article on the argentinian system. i was not surprised to read that coverage or rioting was aired, but not of the solidarity that followed. too bad to hear about the brukman factory, that was an impressive show of initiative and again-solidarity

 

[champ2823]

I don't understand the whole Liberal-Conservative argument. Blindly following a political party gets you in trouble either way. I am a Republican who hates the Bush Administration. Basically, in my eyes, America has turned fascist as fascism is the merger of corporate interests and govt. Also, I see the Republican party as a shell of its former self...totally going against policies that a Republic as America is is supposed to be.

In the argument about Bush being a Nazi and comparative to Hitler, I don't think it's mostly a comparison of what Hitler did and what Bush is doing like the Holocaust, but more about propaganda, the loss of civil liberties, and the laws and documents. Basically, I think the argument is that Hitler would have loved to be able to pass legislation like the legislation Bush has passed. And in all fairness, it's not so much Bush, as I see him as more of a puppet, but more like Cheney, Rumsfeld, and others in his administration.

Revolution is the birth of equality and the anithesis to oppression. Our country was founded on revolution. It is the people's right. The American people and the U.S. government are not the same thing. The govt. does not hold authority over the people in the sense of what the people believe. The govt. is supposed to be by the people, for the people. If you think about the British, French, or others, you don't think about their governments, but their civilizations in general. I don't think the rest of the world hates Americans in general, they just hate our government. I'm an American, and I hate our government, but I don't hate my fellow Americans at all. As for an overthrow of the government, it would be a huge task and more people would have to gain knowledge of how the government works for it to happen as it has in other countries. I don't know if it is a feasible action, but at the current rate, might become a necessity in the future for us Americans to live our lives the way our country was founded upon.

 

[Kakarot]

bush's grandfather was a nazi supporter

 

[oldunion]

I don't understand the whole Liberal-Conservative argument. Blindly following a political party gets you in trouble either way. I am a Republican who hates the Bush Administration. Basically, in my eyes, America has turned fascist as fascism is the merger of corporate interests and govt. Also, I see the Republican party as a shell of its former self...totally going against policies that a Republic as America is is supposed to be.

In the argument about Bush being a Nazi and comparative to Hitler, I don't think it's mostly a comparison of what Hitler did and what Bush is doing like the Holocaust, but more about propaganda, the loss of civil liberties, and the laws and documents. Basically, I think the argument is that Hitler would have loved to be able to pass legislation like the legislation Bush has passed. And in all fairness, it's not so much Bush, as I see him as more of a puppet, but more like Cheney, Rumsfeld, and others in his administration.

Revolution is the birth of equality and the anithesis to oppression. Our country was founded on revolution. It is the people's right. The American people and the U.S. government are not the same thing. The govt. does not hold authority over the people in the sense of what the people believe. The govt. is supposed to be by the people, for the people. If you think about the British, French, or others, you don't think about their governments, but their civilizations in general. I don't think the rest of the world hates Americans in general, they just hate our government. I'm an American, and I hate our government, but I don't hate my fellow Americans at all. As for an overthrow of the government, it would be a huge task and more people would have to gain knowledge of how the government works for it to happen as it has in other countries. I don't know if it is a feasible action, but at the current rate, might become a necessity in the future for us Americans to live our lives the way our country was founded upon.

Follow you completely up until the latter half of the 3rd paragraph. I don't hate my fellow American by default, but i tend to hate my fellow American. Its like the Matrix, if they are not fighting the system they are fighting for it...or something along those lines. In North Carolina, if i walked around with a shirt that said bush is a nazi, or anything along those lines, i would get evil looks to say the least. Getting assaulted might be in the mix.

Most people don't know government very well, and because of this the government has already beaten the people who would stand against it; because it is the oblivious who will side with the government. So in closure, i don't hate my fellow american i hate what the american government has done to my fellow american- so translate that.

 

[champ2823]

So in closure, i don't hate my fellow american i hate what the american government has done to my fellow american- so translate that.

Nothing to argue, I agree with you 100%.

I think I was more so speaking in generalities. Like you, there are plenty of Americans I can't stand because they can't think for themselves, believe everything they see on tv or are told blindly, and are unwilling to do their own research. From you're entire statement, there's not one thing I'd attempt to argue against as I believe everything you said exactly on point.

 

[champ2823]

That also reminded me of a couple quotes:

“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same in any country.”
-Hermann Goering (1893 – 1946) Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe,
President of the Reichstag, Prime Minister of Prussia and Hitler’s designated successor.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson

It is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad.
James Madison

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.
Thomas Jefferson

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.""Joseph Goebbels

 

[vanesch]

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie.

That's why I think we shouldn't worry, and why I'd like to see Bush doing his thing a bit longer. Then the consequences will become so visible that they'll wake up over the pond. I think btw that they started waking up.

 

[oldunion]

That's why I think we shouldn't worry, and why I'd like to see Bush doing his thing a bit longer. Then the consequences will become so visible that they'll wake up over the pond. I think btw that they started waking up.

I don't know, most people are ignorant; and we must consider the infinite powers of ignorance. When you steal someones pride through brainwashing from media, people slowly but surely can all relate their ignorance to one another. Like "the real world" or any number of reality shows. And when people say they don't pay attention to or they don't like politics, i don't understand this; it isn't this thing called "politics" is your ability to be who you are and do what you want.

Some people know, some people care, but there are so many who dont. I won't mention a certain conspiracy theory, but it is blatently obvious to anyone who can type in an address and read from left to right.

 

[outsider]

I don't know, most people are ignorant; and we must consider the infinite powers of ignorance. When you steal someones pride through brainwashing from media, people slowly but surely can all relate their ignorance to one another. Like "the real world" or any number of reality shows. And when people say they don't pay attention to or they don't like politics, i don't understand this; it isn't this thing called "politics" is your ability to be who you are and do what you want.

Some people know, some people care, but there are so many who dont. I won't mention a certain conspiracy theory, but it is blatently obvious to anyone who can type in an address and read from left to right.

I couldn't agree more (although, i don't know what conspiracy you are talking about). Life is so much easier for the ignorant who know how to stay that way. I like to ask people: If someone gave you piece of fecal matter that looked, smelled, tasted and felt like chocolate... would you eat it?

One of my favorite quotes:

what is mind? no matter. what is matter? nevermind.

 

[outsider]

No more W!

 

[pattylou]

I don't hate my fellow american i hate what the american government has done to my fellow american- so translate that.

I've tried to figure out my own emotions on this score.

I 'hate' that education is being compromised.

I 'hate' that faith-based society (creationism in school, for example) is being advocated.

I 'hate' that the reasons for war constantly morph, there seems to be no integrity in the govt on this.

I think these sorts of things, coupled with our military, is a dangerous (beyond dangerous) mix for the rest of the globe.

... When I see a fellow American who seems to embody these changes (doesn't value education, is militant about creationism or some other faith based idea, buys the current party line about war without any analysis of the 2003 rationale) ... the negative feelings surrounding these trends really gets me. I don't 'hate' my fellow americans, but there is a lot of negativity that gets mixed up when I see people like this. It's human.

 

[SOS2008]

And when people say they don't pay attention to or they don't like politics, i don't understand this; it isn't this thing called "politics" is your ability to be who you are and do what you want.

What is with these people? When I hear someone say this, I reply "Well you should." I don't care if it makes them embarrassed, because they should feel shame.

No more W!

Ditto. At the same time, I feel it is good for him to deal with his own messes--a little like rubbing the puppy's nose in the poop for potty training.

... the negative feelings surrounding these trends really gets me. I don't 'hate' my fellow americans, but there is a lot of negativity that gets mixed up when I see people like this.

Likewise, ditto. Unfortunately for the first time in my life I do not pursue new personal relationships of any kind with these people. I avoid the matter with family/friends who fall under the "grandfather" clause. This was not the case before Bush, the great divider.

 

[oldunion]

I feel it is good for him to deal with his own messes--a little like rubbing the puppy's nose in the poop for potty training.

If it were so simple, but when we say "bush has to deal with his mess," it really means the citizens have to deal with his mess. its hard to hold the actions of one man against that man, when this man is in control of the usa. He might be blamed for it in the end but citizens will clean it up.

things come to mind such as:
dead soldiers
uranium all over the middle east
loss of public health due to reduced epa standards

speaking of the uranium , i pulled up a link on another thread and searched through that website and this is what i found...http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2005/4.html

 

[Skyhunter]

There is one caveat, of course: if a person actually believes that Bush intends to end the rule of democracy in the US, then it might be worth it to stage a coup. It'd be a tough sell, though, unless he actually did refuse to cede power in 3.5 years.

I believe he intends it, but don't think he will succeed so I am not going to stage a coup.

I don't have any evidence, it is just my opinion.

 

[Skyhunter]

Likewise, ditto. Unfortunately for the first time in my life I do not pursue new personal relationships of any kind with these people. I avoid the matter with family/friends who fall under the "grandfather" clause. This was not the case before Bush, the great divider.

I do. I want to reach out as much as possible to close the division. But I refuse to back off of Bush. He is the problem!

 

[outsider]

I do. I want to reach out as much as possible to close the division. But I refuse to back off of Bush. He is the problem!

I wouldn't give him all the credit... he's got a deep bench of supporters and advisors. Someone has to reassess what is happening and the CURRENT group is clearly wearing blinders.

 

[russ_watters]

I believe he intends it, but don't think he will succeed so I am not going to stage a coup.

I don't have any evidence, it is just my opinion.

Wow. Interesting to know, though.

 

[SOS2008]

If it were so simple, but when we say "bush has to deal with his mess," it really means the citizens have to deal with his mess. its hard to hold the actions of one man against that man, when this man is in control of the usa. He might be blamed for it in the end but citizens will clean it up.

I understand what you are saying, if for no other reason than appointments to the Supreme Court between now and 2008, which is what many people neglected to understand under duress from fear-mongering about terrorism. Nonetheless, Bush was re-elected (though many feel this was accomplished with unethical tactics). So here we are and there he is, like having a tacky piece of art on our walls that we must look at each day (who had such bad taste to put that there!). But he's there, and we must pay the price until his term is done (or he's impeached--oh how wonderful that would be--let me have my dreams!).

I do. I want to reach out as much as possible to close the division. But I refuse to back off of Bush. He is the problem!

Your kindness is a quality, but perhaps dangerous. Do you know what we are dealing with? They are completely off their rocks.

Wow. Interesting to know, though.

You're not on some Republican staff that you pass this information on to are you?

 

[outsider]

I understand what you are saying, if for no other reason than appointments to the Supreme Court between now and 2008, which is what many people neglected to understand under duress from fear-mongering about terrorism. Nonetheless, Bush was re-elected (though many feel this was accomplished with unethical tactics). So here we are and there he is, like having a tacky piece of art on our walls that we must look at each day (who had such bad taste to put that there!). But he's there, and we must pay the price until his term is done (or he's impeached--oh how wonderful that would be--let me have my dreams!).

yes, one day he will be gone... and who will take his place? Who would want to take a position that has been so F'd up? Plus, Bush & Co are expecting to already have what they are looking for by then... why do you think it's full throttle right now? They can't afford for this fiasco to carry on till election time... and even then, they will probably try to finish the job that they started rather than campaign a dead campaign... if this mission is accomplished... i rather not think about it...

Your kindness is a quality, but perhaps dangerous. Do you know what we are dealing with? They are completely off their rocks.

I don't know how he does it... but I think that his level headedness is honorable... we all are trying to learn something here...

You're not on some Republican staff that you pass this information on to are you?

I wonder about anyone who is so closed minded as to not even consider other perspectives (especially on a science forum).