The World Can't Wait! Drive Out the Bush Regime!

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  • #51
russ_watters
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DM said:
Actually, no. "Bush is a Nazi" remains an opinion. It does not change into a fact.
:confused: :confused: That's like saying that whether or not the world is round is an opinion. The Nazis are a specific group. Bush either is or is not a member of that group.

I'm actually floored here - is the entire problem with the politics forum that people don't know the difference between a fact and an opinion? :surprised
 
  • #52
russ_watters
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TRCSF said:
If you're asking if he's an official card carrying member of the National Socialist Party, then no, obviously he's not.
This is another obvious red flag for a crackpot argument: saying things that you know are factually wrong just for the emotional impact. It was good of you to admit it, though. :rolleyes:
 
  • #53
kat
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pattylou said:
Kat: I follow Rasmussen, too.

But interestingly, if you go to Polling report

http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm

and look through polls by different organisations..... Most show a definite downward trend, and Rasmussen is a definite outlyer.

You also have to concede that the 36% report is the first time in his residency that he has hit so low, under any circumstances ---- This is getting into Carter territory. WE may have to "weight" it and I doubt he can sink much lower as his core won't abandon him, but there is no denying we haven't seen anything as low as 36% reported before.

The trend would seem to be downwards, taking all such information into account.
I haven't seen anything resembling a 36% rating on the link you gave. I have an idea of where it may have come from..but I think if you look over the polls on the site you've linked to you'd have to agree 36% would probably be considered an abberation. I also don't see information on the Gallop poll linked in the post after your's on weighting or actual methodology. I'm not a Gallup subscribee so I don't believe I can access the information. Maybe someone else has it. I'd be curious to see it.
I suppose if your correct and if even after adjusting for methodology you were to find the extremely lower ratings. (Although I think it's deceptive for polling companies to compare #'s from polls using likely voters in some and all adults in this one) Bush's ratings are dropping....radically...and continue to...I guess we'll just have to get used to the idea that there's just no way he'll ever get elected in the next presidential election. :yuck:
 
  • #54
So I actually looked at the site. They have no plan. Their only plan is to walk out in the street and make as big a scene as possible. And they think this is going to get Bush out of office? I can't find mention of any other actions they are intending to make on that site. Have they contacted lawyers or their congressmen? Are they actually putting any sort of real effort into this?
 
  • #55
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kat said:
I haven't seen anything resembling a 36% rating on the link you gave. I have an idea of where it may have come from..but I think if you look over the polls on the site you've linked to you'd have to agree 36% would probably be considered an abberation. I also don't see information on the Gallop poll linked in the post after your's on weighting or actual methodology. I'm not a Gallup subscribee so I don't believe I can access the information. Maybe someone else has it. I'd be curious to see it.
I suppose if your correct and if even after adjusting for methodology you were to find the extremely lower ratings. (Although I think it's deceptive for polling companies to compare #'s from polls using likely voters in some and all adults in this one) Bush's ratings are dropping....radically...and continue to...I guess we'll just have to get used to the idea that there's just no way he'll ever get elected in the next presidential election. :yuck:
I don't recall where it came from. I do recall that googling 36% approval Bush, will pull it up as one of the first hits. Particularly in Google News.

The issue isn't whether he will be elected in 2008. I'd guess he won't run. The issue is how low can he go, what effect can this have on everything from global opinion of America to the 2006 elections to how the Christian right may suffer as a result of his ratings.

I suppose there may be ramifications for Jeb, as well, in a 2012 bid. But that's getting increasingly speculative. The electorate seems to have a short attention span, and rightly try not to hold one person responsible for another's actions.
 
  • #56
vanesch
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edward said:
The problem is that if the term Nazi is used, it carries such a nasty connotation that Bush defenders (Karl Rove) can use it to distract people from looking at the facts. And that is exactly what happened in Durbin's case.
Yes, I think I have to agree with Russ that you cannot call Bush a Nazi ; the point made earlier (and for which I extracted some stuff out of Mein Kampf thanks to Russ' link) that Bush applies similar propaganda techniques only means that Hitler and Bush understood the importance of this to convince people.
 
  • #57
vanesch
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edward said:
I shall now and forever refer to him as Attila the Hun :biggrin:
How about Caligula ?
 
  • #58
vanesch said:
How about Caligula ?
Well he's from the south but he doesn't have a sister does he?
 
  • #59
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how to do this...

TheStatutoryApe said:
I haven't checked the site yet but do they make any statements about how they will get Bush out of office? Here in CA we had a recall election, is something like that accounted for in Federal Law? Otherwise he would have to be brought up on criminal charges requiring an investigation and a full legal proceedings inorder to have him impeached. That in and of itself could take the next three years by which time he would be out of office anyway.
This movement's vision is more broad than just impeaching Bush. We're looking to push the entire administration out of power because of the unjust wars, torture, illegal detentions, repression of the rights of women and homosexuals, and moves toward a Christian fascist theocracy. It's not enough to impeach Bush, we'll just get Cheney and Bush's whole cabinet will still be in power pulling the strings. We need to organize a movement based on the same kind of "people power" that drove out the Ferdinand Marcos regime in the Phillippines a few years back -- mass resistance in all fields of society and culture.

The WCW call itself mentions that we can't rely on the Democrats to oppose anything that the Bush regime is doing. Look at their support for giving Bush the power to declare wars at will, supporting his invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, letting Bush appoint whatever judicial nominees he wants (they barely put up a fight, and didn't filibuster anyone just not to lose the right to filibuster forever -- does that make sense to you?) Impeachment means that the Senate has to hold him accountable, and ultimately I think that they are in collusion with his interests more than those of most of the people.

And (speaking to someone who said "America voted for Bush") according to Wikipedia, 62,040,610 people in the U.S. voted for Bush. The voting age population of the U.S. (18+) at the time of the election was 215,694,000 - so about 28% of American adults voted for Bush (a lot of them who did so maybe because of some issue like religion or "moral values" -- which is obviously bull**** if you know what's really up with this regime, but you wouldn't if you only had access to Fox News). 46% of the voting age population did not vote -- about ten percent of that is non-citizens or felons without voting rights -- but I'm sure a large portion of those who didn't vote were people who are disillusioned with the electoral process in the U.S. and didn't like either Bush or Kerry (their positions were pretty similar anyway), and more than that, didn't think their vote mattered anyway since the Supreme Court seems to decide the elections more than the actual polls do.

And to those who say that this call contains a logical fallacy because of the following line:

"People look at all this and think of Hitler – and they are right to do so. The Bush regime is setting out to radically remake society very quickly, in a fascist way, and for generations to come. We must act now; the future is in the balance."

I don't see anything wrong or unfactual in that statement. Bush does remind people of Hitler. Bush's regime is trying to do things like imposing theocratic rule and denying women, gays, and anybody who doesn't fall in line with the Bush Regime's Christian Fascist agenda their fundamental rights -- including a lot of Christians and even anyone in his own "base" that criticizes any part of his plans. And the future IS in the balance: that's why I encourage everyone who agrees with the thrust of this call to distribute it themselves and start organizing for November 2nd right now.
 
  • #60
vanesch
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redwinter said:
We're looking to push the entire administration out of power because of the unjust wars, torture, illegal detentions, repression of the rights of women and homosexuals, and moves toward a Christian fascist theocracy.
Looking from the outside that's also a bit the fear of many people of what's happening there. But you do have a problem: after all, the US is still a democratic system on paper. So why don't you play the game ? Start a political party ? If you think that the great majority of all citizens were disenfranchized with the two traditional parties, "there's a market to take". And honestly this debate over a few votes of who finally won or not doesn't matter. Does it really matter whether the leader represents 49.5% or 50.5% of the population ? He represents about half of it. This is not like a dictator whose true support is 5% and who claims to be elected by 95%.
Because ousting an administration is one thing, but what comes in place ? You ?
 
  • #61
vanesch said:
Looking from the outside that's also a bit the fear of many people of what's happening there. But you do have a problem: after all, the US is still a democratic system on paper. So why don't you play the game ? Start a political party ? If you think that the great majority of all citizens were disenfranchized with the two traditional parties, "there's a market to take". And honestly this debate over a few votes of who finally won or not doesn't matter. Does it really matter whether the leader represents 49.5% or 50.5% of the population ? He represents about half of it. This is not like a dictator whose true support is 5% and who claims to be elected by 95%.
Because ousting an administration is one thing, but what comes in place ? You ?
Good points Vanesch.

Redwinter, my questions still remain unanswered. How do you mean to pull this off. Do you really think that making a ruckus is going to accomplish much?

And welcome to PF by the way.
 
  • #62
Lisa!
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I think Bin Laden would hide in the US this time, so Bush will have to attack US!
 
  • #63
russ_watters
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redwinter said:
We need to organize a movement based on the same kind of "people power" that drove out the Ferdinand Marcos regime in the Phillippines a few years back -- mass resistance in all fields of society and culture.
You're still throwing around emotionally charged words without factual basis, though at the very least, you are implying things that are factually inaccurate ("Nazi" was only one example - as others pointed out, what you said about Abu Graib is factually wrong), but this clarifies things - you're talking about a coup. Sorry, but that just ain't how we do things in the US. I hope you can see how such a thing would badly and permanently damage the country. If you can't, I submit you lack an understanding of what the US is.
 
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  • #64
vanesch
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russ_watters said:
you're talking about a coup. Sorry, but that just ain't how we do things in the US. I hope you can see how such a thing would badly and permanently damage the country. If you can't, I submit you lack an understanding of what the US is.
I agree with Russ here: the remedy (a coup and as such the end of the democratic system in the US) is worse than the illness (Attila the Hun in the white house :smile:). It is in fact what I think Bush did wrong too (let's for a moment pretend that his goals were noble): the remedy (screw international law, provoque chaos etc...) were worse than the illness (some mad dictator in a country somewhere far away).
 
  • #65
Skyhunter
pattylou said:
I don't recall where it came from. I do recall that googling 36% approval Bush, will pull it up as one of the first hits. Particularly in Google News.

The issue isn't whether he will be elected in 2008. I'd guess he won't run. The issue is how low can he go, what effect can this have on everything from global opinion of America to the 2006 elections to how the Christian right may suffer as a result of his ratings.

I suppose there may be ramifications for Jeb, as well, in a 2012 bid. But that's getting increasingly speculative. The electorate seems to have a short attention span, and rightly try not to hold one person responsible for another's actions.
The 36% is support for his handling of the iraq "struggle".

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/client/act_dsp_pdf.cfm?name=mr050826-1tb.pdf&id=2761

About the same as the number of people who believe in UFO's.
 
  • #66
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  • #67
russ_watters
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vanesch said:
I agree with Russ here: the remedy (a coup and as such the end of the democratic system in the US) is worse than the illness (Attila the Hun in the white house :smile:). It is in fact what I think Bush did wrong too (let's for a moment pretend that his goals were noble): the remedy (screw international law, provoque chaos etc...) were worse than the illness (some mad dictator in a country somewhere far away).
There is one caveat, of course: if a person actually believes that Bush intends to end the rule of democracy in the US, then it might be worth it to stage a coup. It'd be a tough sell, though, unless he actually did refuse to cede power in 3.5 years.
 
  • #68
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vanesch said:
I agree with Russ here: the remedy (a coup and as such the end of the democratic system in the US) is worse than the illness (Attila the Hun in the white house :smile:). It is in fact what I think Bush did wrong too (let's for a moment pretend that his goals were noble): the remedy (screw international law, provoque chaos etc...) were worse than the illness (some mad dictator in a country somewhere far away).
Well i think you misunderstand why a coup would be staged and by who. I believe staging a coup would require more organization than exists in the usa right now, the reason the usa is still around is because of its military and increasingly fascist tendencies.

But if a coup was staged with such high organization, i doubt that anyone would stand for a dictator's rule. Although there would be a risk inherent in a coup of this scenario coming to reality, a revolution staged by people may result in general leadership, communism if you will.

The revolution could also be gradual, however; take over the government and continue to allow subsystems to operate until they can be converted.

This is all very dangerous, because revolutions are the thing of fanatacism or the result of being pushed too hard. Czarist russia was very bad, the usa is not at that point right now.
 
  • #69
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oldunion said:
Well i think you misunderstand why a coup would be staged and by who. I believe staging a coup would require more organization than exists in the usa right now, the reason the usa is still around is because of its military and increasingly fascist tendencies.

But if a coup was staged with such high organization, i doubt that anyone would stand for a dictator's rule. Although there would be a risk inherent in a coup of this scenario coming to reality, a revolution staged by people may result in general leadership, communism if you will.

The revolution could also be gradual, however; take over the government and continue to allow subsystems to operate until they can be converted.

This is all very dangerous, because revolutions are the thing of fanatacism or the result of being pushed too hard. Czarist russia was very bad, the usa is not at that point right now.
We had some of those here in argentina :wink: , we overtrown 3 presidents, in 2 weeks with masive mobilizations, of about 1.000.000 , clashes with the police, 24 deaths. we burnt foreing banks, mc donalds, and everything wich was from an imperialistic country...

This a brief history of what hapened during the crisis:
http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2004/23.html [Broken]
 
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  • #70
russ_watters
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oldunion said:
Well i think you misunderstand why a coup would be staged and by who. I believe staging a coup would require more organization than exists in the usa right now, the reason the usa is still around is because of its military and increasingly fascist tendencies.
Just to make this perfectly clear, did you just say that the only reason that the US is still together right now is because the military holds it together?

Also, from your name, location, and the above comment, am I correct to infer that you believe the "Civil War" was an unjust war of agression waged by the United States on an already separate country?
 
  • #71
Skyhunter
russ_watters said:
Just to make this perfectly clear, did you just say that the only reason that the US is still together right now is because the military holds it together?

Also, from your name, location, and the above comment, am I correct to infer that you believe the "Civil War" was an unjust war of agression waged by the United States on an already separate country?
To quote George Carlin
I believe the south was just another minority that got screwed by the US governement.
I believe that the majority of the social problems in this country today trace their roots back to the civil war. Don't get me wrong, I don't support slavery, but we didn't solve the problems associated with slavery with the war. It wasn't until the civil rights movement 100 years later that we seriously began to address the racial and social inequalities that existed and still are exist today to a lesser extent.

The civil war and it's aftermath, ie the amendments to the constitution created the income tax and gave corporations the same rights as individuals.

Slavery is the legal fiction that a person is property. Corporate personhood is the legal fiction that property is a person.
 
  • #72
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russ_watters said:
Just to make this perfectly clear, did you just say that the only reason that the US is still together right now is because the military holds it together?

Also, from your name, location, and the above comment, am I correct to infer that you believe the "Civil War" was an unjust war of agression waged by the United States on an already separate country?
upon reading what i wrote i would put it in this order: because people can make a lot of money and will stand to lose it if this country goes under, because of increasingly fascist tendencies, because of the military/police/agencies.

my name is related to the Soviet Union of old, it was a just war, and im from the Philadelphia region. although im sure you could get the answer you want from some people around here, seems some of them have replaced their brains with a binary program that just spits out republican rhetoric and bigotry every 45 minutes.

interesting article on the argentinian system. i was not surprised to read that coverage or rioting was aired, but not of the solidarity that followed. too bad to hear about the brukman factory, that was an impressive show of initiative and again-solidarity
 
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  • #73
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I don't understand the whole Liberal-Conservative argument. Blindly following a political party gets you in trouble either way. I am a Republican who hates the Bush Administration. Basically, in my eyes, America has turned fascist as fascism is the merger of corporate interests and govt. Also, I see the Republican party as a shell of its former self...totally going against policies that a Republic as America is is supposed to be.

In the argument about Bush being a Nazi and comparative to Hitler, I don't think it's mostly a comparison of what Hitler did and what Bush is doing like the Holocaust, but more about propaganda, the loss of civil liberties, and the laws and documents. Basically, I think the argument is that Hitler would have loved to be able to pass legislation like the legislation Bush has passed. And in all fairness, it's not so much Bush, as I see him as more of a puppet, but more like Cheney, Rumsfeld, and others in his administration.

Revolution is the birth of equality and the anithesis to oppression. Our country was founded on revolution. It is the people's right. The American people and the U.S. government are not the same thing. The govt. does not hold authority over the people in the sense of what the people believe. The govt. is supposed to be by the people, for the people. If you think about the British, French, or others, you don't think about their governments, but their civilizations in general. I don't think the rest of the world hates Americans in general, they just hate our government. I'm an American, and I hate our government, but I don't hate my fellow Americans at all. As for an overthrow of the government, it would be a huge task and more people would have to gain knowledge of how the government works for it to happen as it has in other countries. I dunno if it is a feasible action, but at the current rate, might become a necessity in the future for us Americans to live our lives the way our country was founded upon.
 
  • #74
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bush's grandfather was a nazi supporter
 
  • #75
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champ2823 said:
I don't understand the whole Liberal-Conservative argument. Blindly following a political party gets you in trouble either way. I am a Republican who hates the Bush Administration. Basically, in my eyes, America has turned fascist as fascism is the merger of corporate interests and govt. Also, I see the Republican party as a shell of its former self...totally going against policies that a Republic as America is is supposed to be.

In the argument about Bush being a Nazi and comparative to Hitler, I don't think it's mostly a comparison of what Hitler did and what Bush is doing like the Holocaust, but more about propaganda, the loss of civil liberties, and the laws and documents. Basically, I think the argument is that Hitler would have loved to be able to pass legislation like the legislation Bush has passed. And in all fairness, it's not so much Bush, as I see him as more of a puppet, but more like Cheney, Rumsfeld, and others in his administration.

Revolution is the birth of equality and the anithesis to oppression. Our country was founded on revolution. It is the people's right. The American people and the U.S. government are not the same thing. The govt. does not hold authority over the people in the sense of what the people believe. The govt. is supposed to be by the people, for the people. If you think about the British, French, or others, you don't think about their governments, but their civilizations in general. I don't think the rest of the world hates Americans in general, they just hate our government. I'm an American, and I hate our government, but I don't hate my fellow Americans at all. As for an overthrow of the government, it would be a huge task and more people would have to gain knowledge of how the government works for it to happen as it has in other countries. I dunno if it is a feasible action, but at the current rate, might become a necessity in the future for us Americans to live our lives the way our country was founded upon.

Follow you completely up until the latter half of the 3rd paragraph. I dont hate my fellow American by default, but i tend to hate my fellow American. Its like the Matrix, if they are not fighting the system they are fighting for it...or something along those lines. In North Carolina, if i walked around with a shirt that said bush is a nazi, or anything along those lines, i would get evil looks to say the least. Getting assaulted might be in the mix.

Most people dont know government very well, and because of this the government has already beaten the people who would stand against it; because it is the oblivious who will side with the government. So in closure, i dont hate my fellow american i hate what the american government has done to my fellow american- so translate that.
 

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