The World Can't Wait! Drive Out the Bush Regime!

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  • #76
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oldunion said:
So in closure, i dont hate my fellow american i hate what the american government has done to my fellow american- so translate that.
Nothing to argue, I agree with you 100%.

I think I was moreso speaking in generalities. Like you, there are plenty of Americans I can't stand because they can't think for themselves, believe everything they see on tv or are told blindly, and are unwilling to do their own research. From you're entire statement, there's not one thing I'd attempt to argue against as I believe everything you said exactly on point.
 
  • #77
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That also reminded me of a couple quotes:

“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same in any country.”
-Hermann Goering (1893 – 1946) Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe,
President of the Reichstag, Prime Minister of Prussia and Hitler’s designated successor.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson

It is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad.
James Madison

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.
Thomas Jefferson

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.""Joseph Goebbels
 
  • #78
vanesch
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
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champ2823 said:
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie.
That's why I think we shouldn't worry, and why I'd like to see Bush doing his thing a bit longer. Then the consequences will become so visible that they'll wake up over the pond. I think btw that they started waking up.
 
  • #79
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vanesch said:
That's why I think we shouldn't worry, and why I'd like to see Bush doing his thing a bit longer. Then the consequences will become so visible that they'll wake up over the pond. I think btw that they started waking up.
I dont know, most people are ignorant; and we must consider the infinite powers of ignorance. When you steal someones pride through brainwashing from media, people slowly but surely can all relate their ignorance to one another. Like "the real world" or any number of reality shows. And when people say they dont pay attention to or they dont like politics, i dont understand this; it isnt this thing called "politics" is your ability to be who you are and do what you want.

Some people know, some people care, but there are so many who dont. I wont mention a certain conspiracy theory, but it is blatently obvious to anyone who can type in an address and read from left to right.
 
  • #80
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oldunion said:
I dont know, most people are ignorant; and we must consider the infinite powers of ignorance. When you steal someones pride through brainwashing from media, people slowly but surely can all relate their ignorance to one another. Like "the real world" or any number of reality shows. And when people say they dont pay attention to or they dont like politics, i dont understand this; it isnt this thing called "politics" is your ability to be who you are and do what you want.

Some people know, some people care, but there are so many who dont. I wont mention a certain conspiracy theory, but it is blatently obvious to anyone who can type in an address and read from left to right.
I couldn't agree more (although, i don't know what conspiracy you are talking about). Life is so much easier for the ignorant who know how to stay that way. I like to ask people: If someone gave you piece of fecal matter that looked, smelled, tasted and felt like chocolate.... would you eat it? :biggrin:

One of my favorite quotes:
Homer Simpson said:
what is mind? no matter. what is matter? nevermind.
 
  • #81
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No more W!
 
  • #82
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oldunion said:
I dont hate my fellow american i hate what the american government has done to my fellow american- so translate that.
I've tried to figure out my own emotions on this score.

I 'hate' that education is being compromised.

I 'hate' that faith-based society (creationism in school, for example) is being advocated.

I 'hate' that the reasons for war constantly morph, there seems to be no integrity in the govt on this.

I think these sorts of things, coupled with our military, is a dangerous (beyond dangerous) mix for the rest of the globe.

.... When I see a fellow American who seems to embody these changes (doesn't value education, is militant about creationism or some other faith based idea, buys the current party line about war without any analysis of the 2003 rationale) .... the negative feelings surrounding these trends really gets me. I don't 'hate' my fellow americans, but there is a lot of negativity that gets mixed up when I see people like this. It's human.
 
  • #83
SOS2008
Gold Member
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oldunion said:
And when people say they dont pay attention to or they dont like politics, i dont understand this; it isnt this thing called "politics" is your ability to be who you are and do what you want.
What is with these people? When I hear someone say this, I reply "Well you should." I don't care if it makes them embarrassed, because they should feel shame.
outsider said:
No more W!
Ditto. At the same time, I feel it is good for him to deal with his own messes--a little like rubbing the puppy's nose in the poop for potty training.
pattylou said:
.... the negative feelings surrounding these trends really gets me. I don't 'hate' my fellow americans, but there is a lot of negativity that gets mixed up when I see people like this.
Likewise, ditto. Unfortunately for the first time in my life I do not pursue new personal relationships of any kind with these people. I avoid the matter with family/friends who fall under the "grandfather" clause. This was not the case before Bush, the great divider.
 
  • #84
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SOS2008 said:
I feel it is good for him to deal with his own messes--a little like rubbing the puppy's nose in the poop for potty training.
If it were so simple, but when we say "bush has to deal with his mess," it really means the citizens have to deal with his mess. its hard to hold the actions of one man against that man, when this man is in control of the usa. He might be blamed for it in the end but citizens will clean it up.

things come to mind such as:
dead soldiers
uranium all over the middle east
loss of public health due to reduced epa standards

speaking of the uranium :eek:, i pulled up a link on another thread and searched through that website and this is what i found....http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2005/4.html [Broken]
 
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  • #85
Skyhunter
russ_watters said:
There is one caveat, of course: if a person actually believes that Bush intends to end the rule of democracy in the US, then it might be worth it to stage a coup. It'd be a tough sell, though, unless he actually did refuse to cede power in 3.5 years.
I believe he intends it, but don't think he will succeed so I am not going to stage a coup.

I don't have any evidence, it is just my opinion.
 
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  • #86
Skyhunter
SOS2008 said:
Likewise, ditto. Unfortunately for the first time in my life I do not pursue new personal relationships of any kind with these people. I avoid the matter with family/friends who fall under the "grandfather" clause. This was not the case before Bush, the great divider.
I do. I want to reach out as much as possible to close the division. But I refuse to back off of Bush. He is the problem!
 
  • #87
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Skyhunter said:
I do. I want to reach out as much as possible to close the division. But I refuse to back off of Bush. He is the problem!
I wouldn't give him all the credit... he's got a deep bench of supporters and advisors. Someone has to reassess what is happening and the CURRENT group is clearly wearing blinders. :grumpy:
 
  • #88
russ_watters
Mentor
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Skyhunter said:
I believe he intends it, but don't think he will succeed so I am not going to stage a coup.

I don't have any evidence, it is just my opinion.
Wow. :bugeye: Interesting to know, though.
 
  • #89
SOS2008
Gold Member
24
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oldunion said:
If it were so simple, but when we say "bush has to deal with his mess," it really means the citizens have to deal with his mess. its hard to hold the actions of one man against that man, when this man is in control of the usa. He might be blamed for it in the end but citizens will clean it up.
I understand what you are saying, if for no other reason than appointments to the Supreme Court between now and 2008, which is what many people neglected to understand under duress from fear-mongering about terrorism. Nonetheless, Bush was re-elected (though many feel this was accomplished with unethical tactics). So here we are and there he is, like having a tacky piece of art on our walls that we must look at each day (who had such bad taste to put that there!). But he's there, and we must pay the price until his term is done (or he's impeached--oh how wonderful that would be--let me have my dreams!).
Skyhunter said:
I do. I want to reach out as much as possible to close the division. But I refuse to back off of Bush. He is the problem!
Your kindness is a quality, but perhaps dangerous. Do you know what we are dealing with? They are completely off their rocks.
russ_watters said:
Wow. :bugeye: Interesting to know, though.
You're not on some Republican staff that you pass this information on to are you?
 
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  • #90
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SOS2008 said:
I understand what you are saying, if for no other reason than appointments to the Supreme Court between now and 2008, which is what many people neglected to understand under duress from fear-mongering about terrorism. Nonetheless, Bush was re-elected (though many feel this was accomplished with unethical tactics). So here we are and there he is, like having a tacky piece of art on our walls that we must look at each day (who had such bad taste to put that there!). But he's there, and we must pay the price until his term is done (or he's impeached--oh how wonderful that would be--let me have my dreams!).
yes, one day he will be gone... and who will take his place? Who would want to take a position that has been so F'd up? Plus, Bush & Co are expecting to already have what they are looking for by then... why do you think it's full throttle right now? They can't afford for this fiasco to carry on till election time... and even then, they will probably try to finish the job that they started rather than campaign a dead campaign... if this mission is accomplished... i rather not think about it... :grumpy:

Your kindness is a quality, but perhaps dangerous. Do you know what we are dealing with? They are completely off their rocks.
I don't know how he does it... but I think that his level headedness is honorable... we all are trying to learn something here...
You're not on some Republican staff that you pass this information on to are you?
I wonder about anyone who is so closed minded as to not even consider other perspectives (especially on a science forum). :frown:
 
  • #91
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I'm so happy I dont live in your country, what a mess! :-)
 
  • #92
Skyhunter
outsider said:
I wouldn't give him all the credit... he's got a deep bench of supporters and advisors. Someone has to reassess what is happening and the CURRENT group is clearly wearing blinders. :grumpy:
To be more accurate in the future I will try and say Bush & Co. If I don't you can assume I also mean to include the people pulling his strings.
 
  • #93
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Anttech said:
I'm so happy I dont live in your country, what a mess! :-)
Do you really think anyone is safe, anywhere?
 
  • #94
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Bush isn't the best president ever, but wtf is with these threads.

EDIT: All of you who say you are happy you don't live here....that's stupid, because you don't know what it's like to live here at all, in the slightest bit(unless you have lived here of course). Media outside of America is very anti American right now. I like living in the US. Everyone says tons of horrible things are happening, but nothing is effecting me really....(nor my parents)
 
  • #95
alexandra
oldunion said:
Do you really think anyone is safe, anywhere?
Excellent point, oldunion. Unfortunately, what the US government does affects everyone's lives everywhere. Some areas of the world may feel relatively more secure at the moment, but this aggressiveness has opened up a can of worms and the chaos that has errupted as a result is unpredictable: anything could happen at any time - we may even be on the brink of WW3 (or even in it - it's hard to tell).
 
  • #96
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Do you really think anyone is safe, anywhere?
I dont fell unsafe anywhere I go to be honest, terrorism is a threat, but it has always been, Politicians are blowing it out of all context now for cheap votes...

I was refering to the Massive and very appartent everywhere you look, divide and polarisation in the American people.... Even in Italy with berlu-mafioso-sconi there isnt such a huge divide...
 
  • #97
alexandra
Anttech said:
I dont fell unsafe anywhere I go to be honest, terrorism is a threat, but it has always been, Politicians are blowing it out of all context now for cheap votes...

I was refering to the Massive and very appartent everywhere you look, divide and polarisation in the American people.... Even in Italy with berlu-mafioso-sconi there isnt such a huge divide...
I don't feel unsafe either, Anttech. But I don't worry so much about my physical safety - I'm more concerned about my mental health. It is a strain living in such times of such huge uncertainty. It is a real strain watching the deaths of thousands of innocent people in wars that are being fought only for the profits of the rich. It is a strain reading about how the ordinary lives of people who just want to do ordinary things - have jobs, have families, go to the movies once a week - living in fear of bombs killing them or their loved ones any second. Even if I am not, at the moment, directly threatened in any of these ways, I can't sleep because of my awareness that so many people are. I think about the depleted uranium used in weapons in Iraq - about the deformities this is causing in babies. I imagine what it would be like to give birth to such 'monsters' as the ones I have seen pictures of. I imagine what it would be like living as a paraplegic returned soldier that no-one cares about and the government doesn't give money to. I can't stop my imagination... I just can't shut it off. So it becomes too much for me. And all for the profits of the already rich! How utterly and unforgiveably disgusting!
 
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  • #98
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I wont call it being scared, but i had a strange feeling the other day because i was driving by three gas stations and all of them had very long lines of cars. I realized that as far away as everyone seems to think they are from whatever, they are not. I am not near Louisiana, or iraq, but i realize now more than ever that what happens at point C can quickly skip point B and return to my residence at A-sorry im an engineer.

On the brink of WW3 Alexandra...perhaps. This time though i dont feel it will be as much of a nation vs nation kind of thing, after all WW2 has a point- to erradicate fascism and restore order. But right now, a war cannot be fought against fascism, its like a cancer now; you cant blast cancer out of your body, you need to isolate it and stop the spread. Who would you even go to fight? In WW3 civilians will be involved, you have china and many other disgruntled countries across the globe; the next war will be against fascism- in such a war everyone is involved.

I live near one of the largest banking hubs in the usa, there is a military base 4 hours east, and no one i know shares an open mind with me. There is racism, bigotry, political unawareness is rampant, and my favorite....indifference; the exodus of individuality as we know it shows the effectiveness of media, publicity is most successful when aimed at the most massive bourgeois/lower class to reduce them down to a narrow field of personality. How could you feel safe in a land like that? It isnt an Aryan nation, but likeness of mind is strongly advocated.

One has to see beyond the fact that all seems normal, you can go see movies or visit the market and buy food etc etc. Thats normal enough, but what about the right to own arms which is increasingly being addressed by the government- what a bonus it would be to have a mentally like population which was not armed; coercion comes to mind. You can do what you want, as long as it doesnt get in the way of government's earning power, as long as it doesnt produce a chaos which was not itself started by government, and as long as you dont threaten the governments ability to control the masses- do anything besides that and you are free.
 
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  • #99
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THere are more ways to feel unsafe than terrorism.

I learned that one of our elementary school's scientist parents is leaving the site council. I said to this man how sad I was to see him go, that we need to make sure science and health have good representation at the school.

There were three of us there, and I swear to god - we all three cast surreptitious glances around - to see if our advocacy of science had been overheard.

The religious right has me scared a hell of a lot more than anything else.
 
  • #100
alexandra
pattylou said:
There were three of us there, and I swear to god - we all three cast surreptitious glances around - to see if our advocacy of science had been overheard.

The religious right has me scared a hell of a lot more than anything else.
pattylou, hang in there, ok! Don't be scared. They must not win! There's much at stake here...

alex
 

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