The World Can't Wait Drive Out the Bush Regime

[pattylou]

If you can't afford a child, don't have sex.


Yes, and how will having abortions help people get out of poverty?

Again, this does not consitute a coherent argument.

I think the lack of substance in your response does more harm to your position than you may realize. You failed to acknowledge anything I said, merely repeated your "unborn babies" reactionism without any statistics, analysis, or understanding of the underlying issues.

And you completely missed the point that I am arguing, which has to do with providing birth control to developing countries, not abortion. Except possibly with your "don't have sex" "solution." Shall we talk about the effects of culture, and rape?

Thank you for helping to illustrate the lack of intelligent thought on the part of the pro-lifers.

 

[pattylou]

Lets put it this way, if you were an unborn child, when would you like to have rights?

This is easy to answer. The "desire" of an unborn baby to have rights could not happen any sooner than a fetus's ability to have "desire."

Thus, we can agree that if the nervous system has not developed, that it is ok to abort.

Thus, it is ok to provide morning after pills.

Do I understand your "well-constructed argument" correctly?

 

[Smurf]

one of the main reasons abortion is only legal in the first trimester is because after that the baby develops the ability to feel pain.

 

[1123581321]

The bottom line is, its wrong to kill, period. The only way it is justified is if you kill to save your self or another.

 

[faust9]

Lets put it this way, if you were an unborn child, when would you like to have rights? A human is a human no matter how old he/she is.

fibonacci

According to you. Not all cultures believe what you believe. A human isn't a human until god breaths life into it. Until such life has been breathed into the newborn(remember, there is no guarantee that an unborn child will survive child birth) that fetus is just a part of the mother---like a finger or a toe---and can be removed if it threatens the life or well being of the mother. How dare you try to impose your beliefs upon me. How dare you! And how dare you try and impose your beliefe system on a poor mother who doesn't know she has the right to refuse sex. How dare you minimize the suffering of the poor like that. How dare you criticize from such an ignorant pearch---when was the last time you were in a truly poor nation? What's next, another crusade. "We'll convert those hethans to our belief system or kill them in the process..."

 

[faust9]

The bottom line is, its wrong to kill, period. The only way it is justified is if you kill to save your self or another.

So I take it you're against capital punishment?

 

[vanesch]

Lets put it this way, if you were an unborn child, when would you like to have rights? A human is a human no matter how old he/she is.

Is it a human before it was conceived ? Are spermatozoida and egg cells humans ?
Is it the fecondated cell that is a human ?
4 cells ?
8 cells ?

 

[vanesch]

The bottom line is, its wrong to kill, period. The only way it is justified is if you kill to save your self or another.

Is it ok to spit ?

 

[Emieno]

Are you aware that many babies in third world countries die, because their mothers can't provide food, or sometimes even milk for them?

No, recent data show it:s different, not so many as you may be thinking...
What you are referring to was an over-12-year-ago thingys!

 

[1123581321]

So I take it you're against capital punishment?

Yes.
I actually think life in prison would be worse than death.

 

[1123581321]

Is it a human before it was conceived ? Are spermatozoida and egg cells humans ?

No

Is it the fecondated cell that is a human ?
4 cells ?
8 cells ?

Yes

 

[vanesch]

No



Yes

Ok, then I repeat my question: is it ok to spit ?

 

[DM]

Thank you for helping to illustrate the lack of intelligent thought on the part of the pro-lifers.

Are you a pro-choice individual?

 

[DM]

From what moment on does an unborn have rights ? What exactly gives it rights ? I mean, should it have a heart ? A brain ?

I'm curious Vanesch, what is this suppose to imply? Are you a pro-choice individual as well?

 

[faust9]

I'm curious Vanesch, what is this suppose to imply? Are you a pro-choice individual as well?

Does it matter?

 

[pattylou]

Fibonacci, tell me, why is it OK to kill in self defense? Can you find a biblical reference that says it is OK? I am unaware of any. In fact, I recall some biblical references that state quite the opposite.

 

[pattylou]

The bottom line is, its wrong to kill, period. The only way it is justified is if you kill to save your self or another.

So, contraception is OK?

 

[pattylou]

No, recent data show it:s different, not so many as you may be thinking...
What you are referring to was an over-12-year-ago thingys!

Yes, I know. I was curious if Fibonacci is up on any of the current numbers.

Apparently not.

 

[pattylou]

Are you a pro-choice individual?

My answer may surprise you.

Please describe pro choice, and I am also curious why you ask, or why it is relevant? I'd prefer to answer your question after I know what you mean by "pro choice."

 

[1123581321]

Fibonacci, tell me, why is it OK to kill in self defense? Can you find a biblical reference that says it is OK? I am unaware of any. In fact, I recall some biblical references that state quite the opposite.

55. This should not cause surprise: to kill a human being, in whom the image of God is present, is a particularly serious sin. Only God is the master of life! Yet from the beginning, faced with the many and often tragic cases which occur in the life of individuals and society, Christian reflection has sought a fuller and deeper understanding of what God's commandment prohibits and prescribes. 43 There are in fact situations in which values proposed by God's Law seem to involve a genuine paradox. This happens for example in the case of legitimate defence, in which the right to protect one's own life and the duty not to harm someone else's life are difficult to reconcile in practice. Certainly, the intrinsic value of life and the duty to love oneself no less than others are the basis of a true right to self-defence. The demanding commandment of love of neighbour, set forth in the Old Testament and confirmed by Jesus, itself presupposes love of oneself as the basis of comparison: "You shall love your neighbour as yourself " (Mk 12:31). Consequently, no one can renounce the right to self-defence out of lack of love for life or for self. This can only be done in virtue of a heroic love which deepens and transfigures the love of self into a radical self-offering, according to the spirit of the Gospel Beatitudes (cf. Mt 5:38-40). The sublime example of this self-offering is the Lord Jesus himself.

Moreover, "legitimate defence can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another's life, the common good of the family or of the State".44 Unfortunately it happens that the need to render the aggressor incapable of causing harm sometimes involves taking his life. In this case, the fatal outcome is attributable to the aggressor whose action brought it about, even though he may not be morally responsible because of a lack of the use of reason. 45

http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0141/__PP.HTM

 

[outsider]

This thread has been hijacked... if you want to start an abortion thread, please do...

 

[1123581321]

So, contraception is OK?

anything that stops the egg from being fertalized is ok with me.

 

[1123581321]

This thread has been hijacked... if you want to start an abortion thread, please do...

if you read the first post by redwinter, he mentions abortion. we are simply discussing that part of the thread.

 

[pattylou]

http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0141/__PP.HTM

Thank you, Fib.

I must say, this has some direct contradictions in it:

"Only God is the master of life!" vs. "the right to protect one's own life."

Why do you believe you have the right to protect your life?

Outsider: Sorry about the hijacking. Abortion *was* one of the issues in the initial post. The post was so long, and had so many issues, that it would be impossible to discuss any of them at length without seemingly going "off topic," IMO.

 

[1123581321]

I believe that i have that right because i value my life more than the life of someone who is trying to kill me, as do most people. I will always try to find a way to protect myself without using leathal force, but i won't hesitate if i need to, even if it would say in the Bible that i shouldn't (which, as you pointed out, the bible isn't clear on).

 

[outsider]

if you read the first post by redwinter, he mentions abortion. we are simply discussing that part of the thread.

fair enough.. in that case...

a fetus relies completely on the mother for it's life. without the mother, the fetus does not have life and cannot survive. it does not have a mind of it's own and is unable to make decisions. It is not a being unto itself until separated from the umbilical cord. Therefore the baby is actually a part of the mother's biology. It is her body and her decision.

it is seldom that any woman who has carried a fetus for more than 2 months would change their minds about abortion (unless the baby was created under false pretence to keep a man or something like that). The fetus has no rights. The person who has the right to decide if they want to carry an extra 30-60lbs for 9 months is the mother. No one else has the right to force her to go through all the pain.

poor people are generally less responsible hence is what keeps them poor... therefore the are likely to have accidents. These poor folk have a hard time supporting themselves, what would make one think that they will do much better with a child? (I'm not saying that its impossible, just improbable). I think growing up poor is great suffering for these children and often poverty is perpetuated due to the preoccupation with their circumstances. Becoming motivated to go to school and excelling is very rare as these children do not have the support systems at home the same as children of average homes.

I can give a shoit what god or dog has to say about it... we are in a new era that allows for people to make this choice for themselves. people want to have sex... no matter if they can afford it or not... forcing them to have a child they cannot afford will likely destroy their relationship, and stack the odds against the child in life.

i'd like to know if YOU are having any sex? And if not, is it by choice or due to your circumstances?

 

[1123581321]

poor people are generally less responsible hence is what keeps them poor... therefore the are likely to have accidents. These poor folk have a hard time supporting themselves, what would make one think that they will do much better with a child? (I'm not saying that its impossible, just improbable). I think growing up poor is great suffering for these children and often poverty is perpetuated due to the preoccupation with their circumstances. Becoming motivated to go to school and excelling is very rare as these children do not have the support systems at home the same as children of average homes.

Accidents? you say it like they have no control over themselves.

I can give a shoit what god or dog has to say about it... we are in a new era that allows for people to make this choice for themselves. people want to have sex... no matter if they can afford it or not... forcing them to have a child they cannot afford will likely destroy their relationship, and stack the odds against the child in life.

If they need to have sex so bad, then they can use condoms or put babies up for adoption.

i'd like to know if YOU are having any sex? And if not, is it by choice or due to your circumstances?

Yeah, i'll publish info like that on the internet.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I'm sory but I think the abortion discussion is rather a moot. Vanesch brought up the point "When does a fetus become a human with rights?" So far neither side really can make a definitive case for itself though good cases they may be. Since the pro-lifers are the ones that want to create a law taking away someone's right to undergo a certain medical procedure the burden of proof is on them(in my opinion). Since this proof can not be satisfactorily established then I do not believe a law should be put in place regarding the medical procedure. Again my opinion. Though we may argue how well such a proof has been established, which seems to only show that it hasn't been, I doubt we will argue that no such law should be put in place until such time as the proof has been established.
I have my own feelings on abortion but I do not let them cloud the issue of other's opinions and rights.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I do agree with you though Fib that people should be more responsable about their sex lives and that adoption should be preferable to abortion.

 

[Evo]

Accidents? you say it like they have no control over themselves.

If they need to have sex so bad, then they can use condoms or put babies up for adoption.


Yeah, i'll publish info like that on the internet.

I've pretty much decided to stay out of this kind of discussion because it goes nowhere, but 1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21 there is no perfect form of birth control. The most responsible of people may still have an accident. They may not be ready to have a child and I am in full support of first trimester abortions for any reason. I am in full support of abortion in later trimesters for medical & psychological reasons.

I have to ask how many unwanted children you have adopted, or if you're too young, how many you plan to adopt? It's so easy to tell people how to live their lives, not so easy to put your money where your mouth is.

Also, there is no way adoption would be a viable alternative to abortion, are you aware of the numbers?