Thermodynamics: Cycles and systems

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the first law of thermodynamics, specifically regarding the implications of internal energy changes in closed and open systems, as well as the concept of cyclic processes. Participants explore the definitions and relationships between closed systems, open systems, and control volumes.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire whether a closed system always experiences a change in internal energy, ΔU, and if it can be zero.
  • It is proposed that ΔU can equal zero for a closed system, but this does not necessarily indicate a cyclic process.
  • Participants note that in a cyclic process, the system returns to its initial state, which implies ΔU must be zero.
  • There is a suggestion that while cyclic processes are typically associated with closed systems, open systems could also theoretically undergo cyclic processes if matter exchange balances out over the cycle.
  • A question is raised about whether "control volume" is synonymous with "open system," leading to clarification that while a control volume is an open system, not all open systems are control volumes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the definitions of closed and open systems and the conditions for cyclic processes, but there is some uncertainty regarding the implications of ΔU being zero and the relationship between control volumes and open systems.

Contextual Notes

The discussion does not resolve the nuances of how ΔU relates to different types of processes or the specific definitions of control volumes versus open systems, leaving these points open for further exploration.

Who May Find This Useful

Students and professionals interested in thermodynamics, particularly those exploring the concepts of energy conservation, system classifications, and process types.

influx
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In the lecture notes my university provided I am told that according to the first law of thermodynamics:

ΣQ = ΣW (for a cycle)
ΣQ = ΣW + ΔU (for a closed system)

Does this mean that there is always a change in internal energy in a closed system? Or can ΔU=0? In other words, can ΣQ = ΣW, and if yes, this means that closed systems can be cyclic? Can open systems be cyclic?

Thanks
 
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influx said:
Does this mean that there is always a change in internal energy in a closed system? Or can ΔU=0? In other words, can ΣQ = ΣW, and if yes, this means that closed systems can be cyclic? Can open systems be cyclic?
Yes, you can have ΔU=0 for a closed system, but that doesn't mean that the process was cyclic. In a cyclic process, the system ends up in the same state that it started from, and therefore must have ΔU=0. Most often, cyclic processes are assumed to happen in closed systems. In principle, you could have an open system that is run on a cycle, which would mean that any exchange of matter with the environment would balance out over one cycle.
 
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DrClaude said:
Yes, you can have ΔU=0 for a closed system, but that doesn't mean that the process was cyclic. In a cyclic process, the system ends up in the same state that it started from, and therefore must have ΔU=0. Most often, cyclic processes are assumed to happen in closed systems. In principle, you could have an open system that is run on a cycle, which would mean that any exchange of matter with the environment would balance out over one cycle.

Thanks for the great answer. One more question if you don't mind, does ''control volume'' refer to the same thing as an ''open system''?

Thanks
 
influx said:
does ''control volume'' refer to the same thing as an ''open system''?
No. A control volume is a subset of a system, and is usually taken to be representative of the greater system. It is an open system, but open systems are generally not control volumes. An open system is any system that can exchange matter with the outside world.
 

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