Thermodynamics - Maxwell Reactions

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the thermodynamic relationship expressed as T = (partial U/partial S)_V = (partial H/partial S)_P, focusing on the derivation and understanding of this equation in the context of fixed compositions. Participants explore the application of partial differential equations and relevant thermodynamic identities.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses uncertainty about how to manipulate the equation H = U + PV and encounters difficulties with an extra term during differentiation.
  • Another participant suggests starting with the differential forms of U and H, indicating that fixing V or P simplifies the equations.
  • There is a clarification that fixing P or V converts ordinary differentials into partial differentials, which is relevant for the problem at hand.
  • Participants discuss the implications of using "d" in the context of ordinary versus partial differentials, raising questions about the necessity of finding partial differentials.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the approach to start with the differential forms of U and H, but there is no consensus on the specific manipulations or interpretations of the terms involved. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best method to proceed with the derivation.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that they have not been provided with relevant equations and that their understanding of partial differential equations may be limited. There is also mention of a textbook that has not yet arrived, which may affect their ability to engage with the material fully.

Philistine
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
We have been asked the following: "For fixed compositions, show that T = (partial U/partial S)_V = (partial H/partial S)_P". There are 7 other equations after this one, but I think once I know how to solve the first one I will be ok with the rest.

We have not been provided with any relevant equations. My knowledge of partial differential equations is a bit rusty, but I have been doing some reading today to brush up. I initially tried to differentiate H = U + PV and substitute that in, but I ended up with an extra Pdv/S, which with constant P I am not sure how to cancel out. I suspect it has something to do with C_v = T(ds/dt)_v and C_p = T(dt/ds)_p but am not sure how to apply them or how to convert from equations at constant volume to equations at constant pressure.

I have ordered Classical Thermodynamics by Van Ness and Abbott at the recommendation of our professor, but it won't arrive until next week. The homework isn't due in for another 2 weeks, but if anyone could help me get started, I would really appreciate it. Maybe just some basic pointers so that I had an idea of what path to follow.

Thanks in advance.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Philistine said:
We have been asked the following: "For fixed compositions, show that T = (partial U/partial S)_V = (partial H/partial S)_P". There are 7 other equations after this one, but I think once I know how to solve the first one I will be ok with the rest.

We have not been provided with any relevant equations. My knowledge of partial differential equations is a bit rusty, but I have been doing some reading today to brush up. I initially tried to differentiate H = U + PV and substitute that in, but I ended up with an extra Pdv/S, which with constant P I am not sure how to cancel out. I suspect it has something to do with C_v = T(ds/dt)_v and C_p = T(dt/ds)_p but am not sure how to apply them or how to convert from equations at constant volume to equations at constant pressure.

I have ordered Classical Thermodynamics by Van Ness and Abbott at the recommendation of our professor, but it won't arrive until next week. The homework isn't due in for another 2 weeks, but if anyone could help me get started, I would really appreciate it. Maybe just some basic pointers so that I had an idea of what path to follow.

Thanks in advance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell_relations

CS
 
For most thermodynamics problems of these sorts, you can start with one of these basic equations and go from there:

dU = T dS - P dV
dH = T dS + V dP
dA = -S dT - P dV
dG = -S dT + V dP

For example, with the first, you can start with the differential for U. Since you want the partial derivative where V is constant, dV = 0. You should be able to take it from there.
 
Thanks!

So:

dU = T dS - PdV
As V is constant, dV = 0. Hence, - PdV = 0
dU = T dS
dU/dS = T

dH = T dS - V dP
As P is constant, dP = 0. Hence, - V dP = 0
dH = T dS
dH/dS = T

Hence
T = dU/dS @ constant V = dH/dS @ constant P

?

Also, when you use "d" are you referring to partial differential or ordinary differential? If the former, does it matter that I need to find the partial differential?
 
The four equations have the ordinary differential. However, by fixing P or V, you convert the ordinary differential into a partial differential (since a partial derivative is an ordinary derivative with one or more of the other variables treated as constant).
 

Similar threads

Replies
5
Views
4K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
1K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
4K
Replies
3
Views
2K
Replies
30
Views
5K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K