News To Fillibuster or Not To Fillibuster

[Dawguard]

The problem is not conservative rulings.. the problem is that he is to the right of the conservatives on the bench!

The Chief Justice is conservative, but I have faith from his record and his answers in his confirmation that he will rule according to the law (albeit a conservative perspective) but, Being pro government power all the time, pro big business all the time, anti-women and minorities all the time is not a conservative, it is a right wing extremist who values the powerful over the powerless.

I ask the same question of you that I asked of SOS2008, show me the freakin' evidence! Let's see the rulings he made, or argued for, in favor of discrimination, etc. Sure he's against abortion, that's hardly extreme. Sure he's against affirmitive action, that's not extreme either. Shout and rant all you like about how evil he is, it won't do you any good unless you can prove it. You might hear people saying it over and over again until you actaully believe it, but that doesn't make it true. We're talking about a real person here, not some imagenary concept we can insult as much as we like. Those are serious charges you are throwing at this man, just as real as you. If you were in his place wouldn't you want evidence shown against you before being condemned? Show some respect for humanity and abide by the adige "innocent until proven guilty".
Now, getting back on topic about the fillibuster. The fillibuster is, as SOS2008 pointed out, is designed to protect to minority against the majority theatening them. The key point there is threat. The fillibuster can be abused like any other tool, and used only to oppose mere partisan politics. This is not what it was meant for. We must then establish whether Alito is a threat. If he is not then using the fillibuster would be a pathetic attempt to push the party's politics. Therefore the question to fillibuster him or not boils down to another question: is he a threat? That is why the thread changed topics to this discussion. Until that question is answered then the idea of fillibustering him cannot be resolved.

 

[BobG]

There's two parts to the issue.

Alito won't be filibustered. Alito has a very "pro-establishment" pattern, but no single cases you could point to and say he's completely "out there". "Very conservative" is about the worst you could say about him. Alito's key cases
(It wouldn't bother me to see him filibustered. It bothers me to see Bush stack the court that will eventually make rulings on his wiretapping and detainee policies. Realistically, that's unavoidable and a poor reason for a filibuster since you can't implement a "Stop Loss" program to prevent Supreme Court Justices from retiring or dieing.)

The filibuster, itself, should be protected. John Bolton comes up for confirmation in January '07 (recess appointments are only good until the next Congress). He was successfully filibustered last summer and should be filibustered again, even if the result will be another recess appointment. To a certain extent, it's not really beneficial to the US to present the idea that Bush's views entirely reflect America's.

 

[SOS2008]

The problem is not conservative rulings.. the problem is that he is to the right of the conservatives on the bench!

The Chief Justice is conservative, but I have faith from his record and his answers in his confirmation that he will rule according to the law (albeit a conservative perspective) but, Being pro government power all the time, pro big business all the time, anti-women and minorities all the time is not a conservative, it is a right wing extremist who values the powerful over the powerless.

I know I have provided evidence via quotes and links to articles that discuss specific cases such as Bray v Marriott, etc., too lengthy to post here and not focused on the filibuster per the OP. Therefore, I for one will no longer reply to certain members who continue to make unreasonable demands while showing no effort to provide substance of their own.

There's two parts to the issue.

Alito won't be filibustered. Alito has a very "pro-establishment" pattern, but no single cases you could point to and say he's completely "out there". "Very conservative" is about the worst you could say about him. Alito's key cases

(It wouldn't bother me to see him filibustered. It bothers me to see Bush stack the court that will eventually make rulings on his wiretapping and detainee policies. Realistically, that's unavoidable and a poor reason for a filibuster since you can't implement a "Stop Loss" program to prevent Supreme Court Justices from retiring or dieing.)

The filibuster, itself, should be protected. John Bolton comes up for confirmation in January '07 (recess appointments are only good until the next Congress). He was successfully filibustered last summer and should be filibustered again, even if the result will be another recess appointment. To a certain extent, it's not really beneficial to the US to present the idea that Bush's views entirely reflect America's.

Once again BobG, thank you for your wonderful contribution.

 

[ComputerGeek]

I ask the same question of you that I asked of SOS2008, show me the freakin' evidence! Let's see the rulings he made, or argued for, in favor of discrimination, etc. Sure he's against abortion, that's hardly extreme. Sure he's against affirmitive action, that's not extreme either. Shout and rant all you like about how evil he is, it won't do you any good unless you can prove it. You might hear people saying it over and over again until you actaully believe it, but that doesn't make it true. We're talking about a real person here, not some imagenary concept we can insult as much as we like. Those are serious charges you are throwing at this man, just as real as you. If you were in his place wouldn't you want evidence shown against you before being condemned? Show some respect for humanity and abide by the adige "innocent until proven guilty".
Now, getting back on topic about the fillibuster. The fillibuster is, as SOS2008 pointed out, is designed to protect to minority against the majority theatening them. The key point there is threat. The fillibuster can be abused like any other tool, and used only to oppose mere partisan politics. This is not what it was meant for. We must then establish whether Alito is a threat. If he is not then using the fillibuster would be a pathetic attempt to push the party's politics. Therefore the question to fillibuster him or not boils down to another question: is he a threat? That is why the thread changed topics to this discussion. Until that question is answered then the idea of fillibustering him cannot be resolved.

It is PUBLIC INFORMATION.

I cited his record... go look it up. when you do a research paper, should anyone reading it require that you drop off all the cited materials? no... the citation is enough.

you want a meta citation so you do not have to work as hard?

http://www.law.yale.edu/outside/html/Public_Affairs/685/YLS%20Alito%20Project%20Final%20Report.pdf

 

[Dawguard]

It is PUBLIC INFORMATION.

I cited his record... go look it up. when you do a research paper, should anyone reading it require that you drop off all the cited materials? no... the citation is enough.

you want a meta citation so you do not have to work as hard?

http://www.law.yale.edu/outside/html/Public_Affairs/685/YLS%20Alito%20Project%20Final%20Report.pdf

Just to nullify the claims that I haven't suplied evidance for my position, I have to remind you that you are the ones accusing Alito. All I have to do is defend from your claims. Never forget, innocent until proven guilty.
ComputerGeek, I read the report you linked to as citation. Unfortunatly I don't find that it conforms what you've said. While a cursory glance at it might make it seem this way, a careful read will show you the details of the cases. His so called anti-woman stance comes from the case Planned Parenthood v. Casey when he said that a women needed to notify her husband before having an abortion. He never said she needed consent, she wouldn't need his permition. All she had to do was tell him what she was doing. The husband could do nothing to stop her. No rights were infringed.
The pro-bigbusiness and anti-minority claims come from dissents where he thought that the plaintiff had failed to provide enough evidance that they were discriminated against due to race or gender. Here again I see little problem. I say little not no because it is very easy to misconstrue his opinions. To accuratly decide whether he is bigotted or not we would have to look at the evidance in the case. However, just becuase he ruled against minorities does not make him biggoted. If every case were decided in favor of the employees then all someone would have to do would be to sue themselves into a promotion. There is nothing inherently wrong in ruling against minorities and employees, so long as they were not ruled against becuasethey were minorities and employees. The article did not discuss this aspect of his rulings. In fact it even said, However, in cases where the employer does not present a consistent explanation for its conduct, Judge Alito has ruled againstthe employer. Bold text added.
Finally the pro government claim you made. He consistenly voted against the power of Congress, he certanly is harsher on criminals then liberals might prefer but this alone is not a condeming since it is a mainstream conservitive viewpoint, he ruled in favor of the EPA and I find nothing in the report of court cases that promote government over individuals.
Reading this report seems to nullify your own claims. You said,

Being pro government power all the time, pro big business all the time, anti-women and minorities all the time is not a conservative, it is a right wing extremist who values the powerful over the powerless.

The report does not support your claims, nor do any of the cases that I have seen. Oh, by the way of your insinuations that I don't want to actually research Alito myself, I must let you know that is false. I didn't just give the man a free pass; I looked up many cases before making up my mind, long before this thread was started. What I did not find was evidence that he was an extremists, so that was why I asked you for it.

Edit: That was an excellent article you linked to. It combined everything in one report, which was better then what I found when researching him.

 

[SOS2008]

Sure he's against abortion, that's hardly extreme. Sure he's against affirmitive action, that's not extreme either.

CBS News/New York Times Poll on Abortion - Jan. 20-25, 2006

Generally Available @ 38%
Stricter Limits @ 39%
Not Permitted @ 21%
Unsure @ 2%

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

= 77% do not feel abortion should be made illegal. People in general who want abortion to be illegal are therefore outside the mainstream. As for affirmative action, this refers to programs to compensate for discrimination, not necessarily in regard to discrimination itself (individual/minority rights). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_rights

I would hope all Americans support individual/minority rights, not just Supreme Court judges.

Edit: That was an excellent article you linked to. It combined everything in one report, which was better then what I found when researching him.

Yes, that was a great link to an excellent study ComputerGeek:

From these cases, we identified several trends in Judge Alito’s judicial approach: he rules in favor of institutional actors and defers to agency decisions in many settings while showing skepticism toward individual litigants’ claims; he appears to support a narrow view of civil rights, prisoner’s rights, and workers’ rights but a broad view of religious freedoms; he appears willing to uphold legislative restrictions on abortion; and he is willing to limit congressional power. When able, he has sought to move the law to achieve the broad philosophical purposes articulated in the memorandum he submitted in November 1985 as part of his application to become Deputy Assistant Attorney General in charge of the Office of Legal Counsel.

http://www.law.yale.edu/outside/html...l%20Report.pdf

So I think it is fair to say that Alito is outside the mainstream. Returning to the filibuster…

Now, getting back on topic about the fillibuster. The fillibuster is, as SOS2008 pointed out, is designed to protect to minority against the majority theatening them. The key point there is threat. The fillibuster can be abused like any other tool, and used only to oppose mere partisan politics. This is not what it was meant for. We must then establish whether Alito is a threat. If he is not then using the fillibuster would be a pathetic attempt to push the party's politics. Therefore the question to fillibuster him or not boils down to another question: is he a threat? That is why the thread changed topics to this discussion. Until that question is answered then the idea of fillibustering him cannot be resolved.

The accusation that Dems have abused the filibuster is another right-wing claim that has no basis. First we can go back through different administrations and see how presidents typically reach across the aisle for some consensus before making a nomination. Bush has blatantly ignored this precedence. Then if you look at the record, you will see that the majority of Bush’s nominations have been approved, including the three most recent controversial judges per great concession via the “gang of 14.” If you feel the Dems have abused the filibuster, please provide evidence.

 

[Dawguard]

CBS News/New York Times Poll on Abortion - Jan. 20-25, 2006

Generally Available @ 38%
Stricter Limits @ 39%
Not Permitted @ 21%
Unsure @ 2%

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

= 77% do not feel abortion should be made illegal. People in general who want abortion to be illegal are therefore outside the mainstream.

That the 39% who favor limitations not complete illegalization do not say that they're for abortion. You can be opposed to it but still not want it outlawed. For example simply making it illegal would leave no recourse for rape victims, the mother's life endangered, etc. Thus to say that 77% percent of America are for abortion is a minscontruing of the poll. Alito has judges for stricter limitations, so combining two other groups, he might represent 60% of Americans, clearly in the mainstream. This might be misconstruing the poll too though.

As for affirmative action, this refers to programs to compensate for discrimination, not necessarily in regard to discrimination itself (individual/minority rights). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_rights

I would hope all Americans support individual/minority rights, not just Supreme Court judges.

Of course we should support individual/minority rights. That doesn't mean we should support affirmitive action. There needs to be no injustice for affirmitive action to take effect. A minority who lives in a middle class family and has the exact same qualifications as a caucasion who lives in the same category will be, under affirmitive action, preferred over the caucasion simply becuase he is a different race. Any preference of race is wrong, regardless of whether they are a minority or majority. I don't give a damn what race you are, there should be absolutely no discrimination.

Yes, that was a great link to an excellent study ComputerGeek:

http://www.law.yale.edu/outside/html...l%20Report.pdf

So I think it is fair to say that Alito is outside the mainstream. Returning to the filibuster…

As I said to ComputerGeek, a cursory glance at the beginning will indeed make him appear somewhat extreme. Read on though and look at the cases themselves, you will see that his rulings, while conservative, are hardly extremist. In my last post I cited some of his cases from this report, if you wish me to list even more I would be happy to do so.

The accusation that Dems have abused the filibuster is another right-wing claim that has no basis. First we can go back through different administrations and see how presidents typically reach across the aisle for some consensus before making a nomination. Bush has blatantly ignored this precedence. Then if you look at the record, you will see that the majority of Bush’s nominations have been approved, including the three most recent controversial judges per great concession via the “gang of 14.” If you feel the Dems have abused the filibuster, please provide evidence.

I said if the Dems fillibuster him it would be an abuse. If, not have. I also said it could be abused, which is a simple fact of politics. However, I don't believe that it has been abused yet, only that it could be.

 

[Dawguard]

Well, it was just unoficially confirmed that Alito has got over fifty-one votes. The voting is still going on, but just to let you know he's in now.
Turns out the dems didn't abuse the fillibuster. Good for them, they were able to see beyond partisan hatred, I repectfully salute them for that.

 

[SOS2008]

Sometimes you lose a battle to win a war. Yes, good for the Dems, they were able to overlook the GOP power grab, abuses, and threats. They understand the importance of checks and balances and the future of the U.S.

Meanwhile, illegal activities will continue to be exposed. Americans should take heed of the Palestinians. To quote Bush: "Obviously people were not happy with the status quo, the people are demanding honest government…” With the 2006 elections, power should become more balanced again, and in 2008...

 

[Dawguard]

I completely agree. The republicans are in more trouble then I think they realize. People won't overlook the scandals going on and something has to give. I wouldn't be sorry to see many of them thrown out. Unfortunatly I don't have much hope in the democrats either. I'm an independent and trust neither party. Going all the way back to the Grant administration after the Civil War there has been graft, corruption and abuse of power by the government and I see no reason why it should change.
Oh well, this really is off topic now. You're right, I think not using the fillibuster will help the dems in the upcoming election, and I wouldn't be suprised to see them gain a few seats due to it. It really is ironic that Bush stated the foreshadowed echo of his own demise.