To Tip or Not to Tip: Is it a Must in Restaurants and Hotels?

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Tipping is considered essential in the U.S. service industry, where many workers rely on tips to supplement their low wages. It is customary to tip waitstaff, bellhops, and housekeeping, with specific guidelines suggesting 15-20% for good service in restaurants. The discussion highlights confusion around tipping practices for various services, such as massages and haircuts, where the expectation may vary. Cultural differences in tipping etiquette are also noted, with the U.S. having a much higher tipping standard compared to countries like the U.K. and Japan. Overall, failing to tip in the U.S. is viewed as disrespectful to service workers who depend on these gratuities for their income.
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If you go into a good restaurant or check in some luxurious 5 star hotel, do you have to tip the bellboys, any waiters or waitresses etc ?
What if you do and act like Mr.Bean or Ms.Swan ?
 
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Medicol said:
If you go into a good restaurant or check in some luxurious 5 star hotel, do you have to tip the bellboys, any waiters or waitresses etc ?
What if you do and act like Mr.Bean or Ms.Swan ?
In the United States tipping is a must unless the person has done something really wrong, that's how they make their money. It doesn't matter if it's a nice place or a dive, you tip. In a hotel, at the end of your stay, you also leave a tip for the people that clean your room, or if you're smart you tip them some the first day. Because I traveled a lot for my job, I was actually given instructions on who to tip, when, and how much. I was surprised at how many people I was supposed to tip, I never would have guessed.

Oh dear, this says tip the room cleaner daily since the person can change.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/06/24/hotel.housekeeping.tipping/
 
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Medicol said:
If you go into a good restaurant or check in some luxurious 5 star hotel, do you have to tip the bellboys, any waiters or waitresses etc ?
What if you do and act like Mr.Bean or Ms.Swan ?

As Evo said, it is expected in the US and it is extremely disrespectful of service people who depend on tips for most of their wages if you do not tip. It is especially bad manners to not tip if the service is good.
 
Evo said:
Because I traveled a lot for my job, I was actually given instructions on who to tip, when, and how much. I was surprised at how many people I was supposed to tip, I never would have guessed.

Could you share on who to tip, when and how much if you are staying at a rather nice hotel?
(Background: Grad student attending a conference, room is being paid for but I guess I need to factor tips into my expenses)
 
I'm never sure who to tip. I've been to lots of restaurants, so I know to tip the servers. I'm going to get my first professional massage soon. Do I tip them? I have no idea. I pay a bunch of money for the massage itself... so why would I tip? And haircuts. Do I tip them? I've done my own haircuts ever since I was old enough to do it myself, so I don't know if I tip hair stylists. Never heard of tipping barbers, and that's what I went to as a kid, but I've never went to a stylist. I want to, but I don't know if I'm supposed to tip them. Seems like it might be awkward. "And here's some extra money..."
I guess it comes down to if the person providing the service makes less money because they're expected to get tips. And... I would know this information how?
 
I read once that you tip the hair stylist if they are an employee, but not if they are the owner. Of course this was decades ago, but it makes sense, the employee only gets to keep part of what you pay, the owner keeps all, or the employee may rent space from the owner and keep the fee, but they still don't get to keep as much as the owner in the end. I will try to do some research tonight and try to find out what the current tip etiquette is.
 
I always tip my barber. Unless you frequent the art of shaving, barbershop prices are low so giving another 5 bucks doesn't hurt. Plus you never know how much a few extra bucks means to someone. My dad always tipped barbers so I started doing it out of habit. My usual barber certainly doesn't mind.

And as evo mentioned when it comes to servers in the US tips are their source of income so you have to tip them. In my opinion if you can't afford to tip a server then you shouldn't be eating at a restaurant. It is messed up that the servers have to mainly live off of tips but the US isn't exactly known for it's fair treatment of these kinds of employees.
 
I tip:

* waiters: 15% for good/normal service, 20% for exceptional service, 0-10% for substandard service, depending on how bad
* bartenders: a buck (if male) or two (if female) per drink
* woman who cuts my hair: $5
* cab driver: 10% or so
* guy who carries my bags at a hotel if I'm too lazy: $5
 
leroyjenkens said:
I'm never sure who to tip. I've been to lots of restaurants, so I know to tip the servers. I'm going to get my first professional massage soon. Do I tip them? I have no idea. I pay a bunch of money for the massage itself... so why would I tip? And haircuts. Do I tip them? I've done my own haircuts ever since I was old enough to do it myself, so I don't know if I tip hair stylists. Never heard of tipping barbers, and that's what I went to as a kid, but I've never went to a stylist. I want to, but I don't know if I'm supposed to tip them. Seems like it might be awkward. "And here's some extra money..."
I guess it comes down to if the person providing the service makes less money because they're expected to get tips. And... I would know this information how?

We should tip just about everyone anymore. The person who will make the most money from your massage is the massage parlor, or spa owner, not the massage therapist.

If the actual service provider doesn't own the place, they usually depend on tips.
 
  • #10
edward said:
The person who will make the most money from your massage is the massage parlor, or spa owner, not the massage therapist.

Do you really think that is true? I don't. The owner makes more money overall, but not per massage.

I work as a pizza delivery driver. I make more off an order than anybody else in the organization, even if I get stiffed. The catch is that I also work with less orders than most anybody else does.
 
  • #11
jbunniii said:
I tip:
* bartenders: a buck (if male) or two (if female) per drink

Why would you tip the bartender as a function of their gender?
 
  • #12
ModusPwnd said:
Do you really think that is true? I don't. The owner makes more money overall, but not per massage.

I work as a pizza delivery driver. I make more off an order than anybody else in the organization, even if I get stiffed. The catch is that I also work with less orders than most anybody else does.

My daughter in law works as a massage therapist at a spa. Their standard charge is $95. She gets 45% the owner gets 55%. This can vary, some locals place have a 50/50 split. My daughter in law stays where she is because the location has a lot of big tippers.
 
  • #13
But the owner does "make" that 55%... Surely some of the cost has to go to utilities, rent, taxes, etc. I bet that comes out of the owner's 55%, not the masseuse's 45%. So only if utilities, rent, taxes, etc are less than 10% of the total take does your statement hold true. I doubt that is the case. Do you think that makes sense? The building and electricity have to cost something...
 
  • #14
As a pizza delivery driver myself, I'd like to know by what logic you make "more than anyone else in your organization" does from an order. When I'm driving, I make $4.25 an hour, have to spend the money on gas to drive to the location (which can be as much as 10 miles away), and the company only compensates me $1.07 for each drive. I've done the math, and I need to get about $3 in tips, every drive, simply in order to be making close to minimum wage. Anything below $3 is simply telling your delivery driver that your pizza or their best efforts aren't important to you, and giving no tip at all marks you as an ungrateful wretch.

Stiffers, the people who don't tip your drive at all, are the main reason pizza delivery has such a high turnover rate.
 
  • #15
ModusPwnd said:
But the owner does "make" that 55%... Surely some of the cost has to go to utilities, rent, taxes, etc. I bet that comes out of the owner's 55%, not the masseuse's 45%. So only if utilities, rent, taxes, etc are less than 10% of the total take does your statement hold true. I doubt that is the case. Do you think that makes sense? The building and electricity have to cost something...
But the masseuse is the one working, not the owner, so the cut the owner is getting is covering their expenses and then some. The more people working and paying the more the owner makes for doing nothing, so to speak.
 
  • #16
Tipping also depends heavily on the country and culture.

Refer to previous posts in this thread for standard tipping for U.S. If you don't tip for services in the U.S., it is a big deal. Waiters, bartenders, taxi-drivers, in the U.S. are paid next to nothing (often well below the minimum wage [and yes, that's legal in these cases]) because there is an understanding that they will earn the bulk of their money from tips.

In the U.K./Ireland, you can tip your waiter/bartender, but if you tip as much as you would in the U.S., you'd be perceived as going overboard (and may even be perceived with suspicion thereafter). Tipping amounts and frequency of tipping is a fraction of what it is in the U.S (maybe 1/3 as a rough guess).

In many Asian countries there is little to no tipping. I've tipped taxi-cab drivers a little, and they didn't seem to mind. But once after I left a tip for a waitress at a restaurant in Japan, she chased me for blocks thinking that I had left some money behind. When I explained that I left it as a tip she looked noticeably dejected and possibly offended. Coming from an American mentality, sometimes it's an effort not to tip. But sometimes it's a necessary effort, depending on the region and culture. (Assuming you don't wish to needlessly offend the people offering you service.)
 
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  • #17
leroyjenkens said:
I'm never sure who to tip.

In the US you tip the people who are paid an otherwise substandard wage.

For example, PF mentors are paid zero. We should be heavily tipped.

Reminder to self: Set up a bitcoin account!
 
  • #18
Char. Limit said:
As a pizza delivery driver myself, I'd like to know by what logic you make "more than anyone else in your organization" does from an order. When I'm driving, I make $4.25 an hour, have to spend the money on gas to drive to the location (which can be as much as 10 miles away), and the company only compensates me $1.07 for each drive. I've done the math, and I need to get about $3 in tips, every drive, simply in order to be making close to minimum wage. Anything below $3 is simply telling your delivery driver that your pizza or their best efforts aren't important to you, and giving no tip at all marks you as an ungrateful wretch.

Stiffers, the people who don't tip your drive at all, are the main reason pizza delivery has such a high turnover rate.
I assume that you also use your own car so there is a cost for wear and tear on your car?
 
  • #19
Evo said:
I assume that you also use your own car so there is a cost for wear and tear on your car?

But of course. In fact, I'm actually having to get my tires replaced tomorrow, primarily because I'm driving a hundred miles a day.
 
  • #20
I make minimum wage and take between 2 and 3 deliveries an hour. That comes to 3.2 dollars per order. Orders usually cost between 10 and 15 dollars. Managers make 12-15 dollars per hour and produce 40-50 orders over an 8 hour shift. Thats at best, 3 dollars per order. And this is assuming I get stiffed on every delivery, which I don't.

If you are doing 20 mile round trips at 4.25 an hour I am not surprised people quit your place a lot... I average 2.5 miles one way. Vehicles cost about 55 cents per mile to operate so I calculate that I need to bring in about 2.50 per delivery to be equal to minimum wage. Of course this doesn't count any compensation for having one the most dangerous jobs there is... If I didn't average $4 per delivery I would quit driving and work inside. I average about $5 per delivery with the delivery fee and tip combined.
 
  • #21
ModusPwnd said:
I make minimum wage

There's your problem, then. Most people who work jobs that recommend tipping don't.
 
  • #22
I have a friend that bartends in northern UK where there are no American tourists and tips are unheard of. Perhaps they have gained some acceptance in larger cities with more Americans?
 
  • #23
ModusPwnd said:
But the owner does "make" that 55%... Surely some of the cost has to go to utilities, rent, taxes, etc. I bet that comes out of the owner's 55%, not the masseuse's 45%. So only if utilities, rent, taxes, etc are less than 10% of the total take does your statement hold true. I doubt that is the case. Do you think that makes sense? The building and electricity have to cost something...

Wow if splitting hairs pays well you should do great in life. I only mentioned where most of the money goes and it isn't to the massage therapist. The OP is about tips and it is tips that allow a massage therapist and a lot of others to make a living wage.
 
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  • #24
ModusPwnd said:
He said per massage. He didn't make any claim on who "deserves" more or makes more overall. The owner's 55% cut does not all go to the owner's pay. It goes to the owner's pay and expenses.

Also, the claim that the owner does no work is kind of silly... Surely the owner must do something?
That's why I said "so to speak" they manage the place. Also, you're forgetting that it's unlikely they have only one employee, so the owner is getting many times more than the individual at one time.

Quit dragging this thread off topic.
 
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  • #25
Oddly, I've actually had some inside exposure to how the massage therapy industry works in the U.S.

ModusPwnd said:
But the owner does "make" that 55%... Surely some of the cost has to go to utilities, rent, taxes, etc. I bet that comes out of the owner's 55%, not the masseuse's 45%. So only if utilities, rent, taxes, etc are less than 10% of the total take does your statement hold true. I doubt that is the case. Do you think that makes sense? The building and electricity have to cost something...

There are a lot of expenses, some of them hidden expenses. No argument from me there. But more often it's the massage therapist who faces a good chunk of some of these expenses.

Mostly though, who pays for what varies quite a lot from one business to the next.

There are some massage therapy businesses where massage therapists are like employees. But this is more the exception than the rule.

Commonly early on, when the massage therapist is learning the business, the massage therapist works for the school for essentially no cut at all until he or she completes training and can get his or her massage therapy license.

Once licensed, and working at a business, the massage therapist is usually (at least from my exposure) treated as an independent contractor. That's a subtle yet important difference for this conversation. Because in this situation, the proprietor of the business does not need to contribute anything that most employers do like health care, unemployment benefits, social security, tax withholding, retirement benefits, etc. It's completely up to the massage therapist to keep a handle on these things. And at the end of the year when doing taxes, it's not a simple matter of submitting a W2 form, rather the massage therapist must file taxes as if he or she is running his or her own business.

The proprietor owns the building (or takes care of its lease), decor, and probably owns the massage tables. The proprietor might also own the sheets/bedding and take care of the laundry too, but that's not universal. Sometimes it's up to the massage therapists to wash their own sheets,even if that means taking them to the laundromat [Edit: and trust me, there are a lot of sheets. Every single massage equates to another set of sheets to wash]. And then there are the oils, possibly incense, maybe stones (some massage techniques use stones), and such, and who pays for such things depends on the business. But it often falls on the shoulders of the therapist.

So I agree that that there are a lot of overhead expenses, and the business proprietor takes care of quite a lot of them, but the therapist has his or her own expenses too (except in very rare cases).
 
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  • #26
We're completely off topic here, let's get back to tipping.
 
  • #27
Evo said:
We're completely off topic here, let's get back to tipping.

Sorry for rambling. :redface:

Perhaps my point was that in the U.S., tips are not always just given for a little extra disposable income. Sometimes tips are a/the major contributor to a person's basic healthcare coverage, etc.
 
  • #28
collinsmark said:
Sorry for rambling. :redface:

Perhaps my point was that in the U.S., tips are not always just given for a little extra disposable income. Sometimes tips are a/the major contributor to a person's basic healthcare coverage, etc.
Sometimes, it's basically their sole income and they do not have any insurance etc...
 
  • #29
OMG, I just lost a huge post. Damn. you chrome!
 
  • #30
Back on track, I like the idea of tipping. Some service personnel don't give a whatever, or worse. They put things in your food, toss your luggage around, or when you say "careful around my T12, I pancaked it 25 years ago" they go right for it in the worst way.

Others take extra special care of you in a restaurant, lift your luggage with care, or are very careful around the T12.

I worked those low end service jobs to help get me through college. You just don't take it out in John Doe because Jane Smith just stiffed you for good service and good food. Who knows? John Doe might well be a decent tipper. On the other hand, there's no problem with remembering Jane Smith. She doesn't deserve spit in her food (no one does), but she doesn't deserve good service.BTW, I just took my wife out for a birthday dinner this week. The tip was a well-earned >25%. If you're ever in Galveston TX, go to Rudy & Pacos. My first plan was a long-time favorite but was closed for repairs. My second choice was the place we held my son's wedding rehearsal dinner but had changed hands. Third choice? I asked people on the street. "Go to Rudy & Pacos! It's the bomb!" And it was. A rather expensive bomb, but very, very, very good.
 
  • #31
And if you can, tip in cash, since management may take a cut of employees' tips (specially waiters) if you leave the tip in your credit card. It is a pain, since it means more trips to the ATM, but it is worth it.
 
  • #32
Don't let anyone clean your room if you're in a hotel in US.:biggrin:
 
  • #33
The only people I tip are the following:

waiters (usually for 15%; 20% if I get excellent service)
bartenders (same rule as for waiters -- 15-20%)
barbers/hairstylists (15%)

I don't tip cab drivers typically, since cab fares in Toronto are already quite expensive (I have tipped limo drivers when taking me to the airport in the past, however). And I have never tipped the cleaning staff in hotels (I honestly don't see any reason to do so, since I never see them -- I only prefer to tip people who I actually see their work).
 
  • #34
Please stay on topic. Off topic posts will be deleted.
 
  • #35
The US tipping system sounds quite ludicrous to me...

I'm not fond of the idea of tipping myself, and happy to live a place where it's not legal to have your employers salary depend on tipping.
 
  • #36
Tipping is an unwritten rule in the USA. In many other countries, the idea of tipping is ludicrous. I don't like when workers, who 'rely' on tips, claim that without tips they would be making under minimum wage. It just isn't true; minimum wage kicks in. I don't see why a job like moving plates is worth anything other than minimum wage.
 
  • #37
Permanence said:
Tipping is an unwritten rule in the USA. In many other countries, the idea of tipping is ludicrous. I don't like when workers, who 'rely' on tips, claim that without tips they would be making under minimum wage. It just isn't true; minimum wage kicks in. I don't see why a job like moving plates is worth anything other than minimum wage.

So what is up with this great love affair with minimum wage??
 
  • #38
Evo said:
In the United States tipping is a must unless the person has done something really wrong, that's how they make their money. It doesn't matter if it's a nice place or a dive, you tip. In a hotel, at the end of your stay, you also leave a tip for the people that clean your room, or if you're smart you tip them some the first day. Because I traveled a lot for my job, I was actually given instructions on who to tip, when, and how much. I was surprised at how many people I was supposed to tip, I never would have guessed.

Oh dear, this says tip the room cleaner daily since the person can change.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/06/24/hotel.housekeeping.tipping/
I don't get it, why isn't service charge included in the bill. It would make life so much easier. If someone does an exceptional job one can always leave some extra appreciation, the idea that people don't get anything without a tip sounds primitive.
 
  • #39
I once tipped a young woman with a $100.00 bill for serving me pie and coffee.

I was visiting my home town after a long absence. After the young woman took our order and came back with the pie and coffee there were tears streaming down her cheeks. I ask my brother in law who was with me at the table what her problem might be.

He said: "Oh she is just tired she is trying to make enough money for to pay for her sophomore year at college. She works two jobs. She works at the restaurant from 7 AM until 2 PM then she goes to work at a factory that makes alloy wheels from 3 PM until 11 PM."

Now that is work ethic and determination in my book. I put the $100.00 bill under my coffee cup with just the number one showing. That woman is now an English teacher at the high school I attended almost a lifetime ago.
 
  • #40
Monique said:
I don't get it, why isn't service charge included in the bill. It would make life so much easier. If someone does an exceptional job one can always leave some extra appreciation, the idea that people don't get anything without a tip sounds primitive.

Including the room service charge in the bill would make the advertised price of the hotel/motel room higher and people would go to a business that doesn't charge a mandatory service fee.

Forcing all hotel/motel owners to charge a service fee would be considered excess regulation.

Americans like to make their own choices. Business is very competitive here in a free market society.

Yes, LOL we are primitive.:approve:
 
  • #41
Hmmm, I used to get tips when I worked at a gardening center. I would load cars with bags of fertilizer (40, 50, 70 lbs) or bags of sand, gravel or dirt (70-100 lbs), or manure (40-50 lbs). So folks were grateful, and they rewarded me for the service.

Sometimes, I turned down tips because I thought I was being paid for the work already.

I just found out that I was making less than minimum wage (1973-1974), which was $2.00/hr. I started at $0.65/hr and over a couple of months moved up to $1.05/hr, but I was 15 at the time, so I was not eligible for minimum wage apparently.

http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/chart.htm

If I worked full time at $1.00/hr, with full time year at 2000 hrs, I'd only make $2000 in a year, and that is not much to live on, or pay for university at the time. The university I first attended had a tuition of ~$2000/yr + room and board + expenses. It probably wasn't until university that I got jobs that paid above minimum wage.
 
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  • #42
Monique said:
I don't get it, why isn't service charge included in the bill. It would make life so much easier. If someone does an exceptional job one can always leave some extra appreciation, the idea that people don't get anything without a tip sounds primitive.

Sometimes it is! :bugeye: It depends on the establishment and situation. Some restaurants will add a "gratuity charge," perhaps around 15%, in certain situations such as the bill being larger than some amount.

So when visiting the U.S., make sure to check your bill to see if a "gratuity charge" has been included on the bill. If it has, you don't need to tip -- the "gratuity charge" on the bill is the tip -- unless you'd like to tip extra.

[Edit: I've only seen this "gratuity charge" added at restaurants, and and only in situations such as where there is a big group of people and the bill is large. So don't expect a "gratuity charge" automatically added in most situations. It does no harm to check though.]

Do not confuse a "gratuity charge" with sales tax; sales tax is very different and always on your bill.
 
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  • #43
Permanence said:
I don't see why a job like moving plates is worth anything other than minimum wage.

So you think that all a waitress/waiter does is move plates around? Would you tip the person who performs the job described below?

One of the skills a waitress must have is the ability to manage several tasks at a time as part of the requirements to handle the many demands of the job. A waitress must be able to learn quickly so as to commit the menu and other details to memory in order to relay any information regarding such details to the customers who might need them. The job of this individual is a physically demanding one, so a waitress must be fit enough to handle the long hours of standing and moving about that come naturally with the job. Perhaps the most important skill a waitress must have is good interpersonal skills in order to relate well with both the numerous customers and other coworkers. This person is also expected to be a good time manager in addition to being a good representative for the restaurant establishment.

http://www.wisegeekedu.com/what-skills-do-i-need-as-a-waitress.htm
 
  • #44
edward said:
I once tipped a young woman with a $100.00 bill for serving me pie and coffee.

I was visiting my home town after a long absence. After the young woman took our order and came back with the pie and coffee there were tears streaming down her cheeks. I ask my brother in law who was with me at the table what her problem might be.

He said: "Oh she is just tired she is trying to make enough money for to pay for her sophomore year at college. She works two jobs. She works at the restaurant from 7 AM until 2 PM then she goes to work at a factory that makes alloy wheels from 3 PM until 11 PM."

Now that is work ethic and determination in my book. I put the $100.00 bill under my coffee cup with just the number one showing. That woman is now an English teacher at the high school I attended almost a lifetime ago.

While she probably was sincere, in some countries you have to watch out for emotional stories from service workers. They are are often forged and used to make people a bit more generous when it comes to tipping.
 
  • #45
Permanence said:
I don't see why a job like moving plates is worth anything other than minimum wage.

This is so amazingly ignorant it blows my mind.
 
  • #46
Interesting Wiki article, if nobody has seen this yet. (It's probably not the most well researched Wiki article and has problems. But there might be some good stuff in there somewhere.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity
 
  • #47
disregardthat said:
While she probably was sincere, in some countries you have to watch out for emotional stories from service workers. They are are often forged and used to make people a bit more generous when it comes to tipping.

The fakes are usually over emotional.

This was a small town and the girl was the granddaughter of one of my high school classmates. The only thing that she said was "Thank You" and that was before she knew about the money.
 
  • #48
collinsmark said:
Interesting Wiki article, if nobody has seen this yet. (It's probably not the most well researched Wiki article and has problems. But there might be some good stuff in there somewhere.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity

Interesting link.

I definitely remember the policeman's gratuity. Although it is much more uncommon now some City police departments were notorious. I remember being pulled over for speeding in Cicero Ill.

It cost me ten bucks and my spare tire to get out of there.
 
  • #49
Permanence said:
Tipping is an unwritten rule in the USA. In many other countries, the idea of tipping is ludicrous. I don't like when workers, who 'rely' on tips, claim that without tips they would be making under minimum wage. It just isn't true; minimum wage kicks in. I don't see why a job like moving plates is worth anything other than minimum wage.

Considering that, as I mentioned earlier, I spend my own gas to drive as far as 10-15 miles away (which doesn't sound like a lot, but is a good three dollars just to get there, and another three back), and my gas compensation is only $1.07 per drive, no matter the distance, no, I don't make minimum wage. Not to mention that there are more jobs where gratuity is needed than your ever-so-dismissive "moving plates".

Honestly, your post reads like the post of someone who never actually worked for a living. Are you upper-middle class by chance?

EDIT: And before you ask, yes, I am personally offended by your dismissive tone. Don't like it? Don't sound like an arse.
 
  • #50
edward said:
Including the room service charge in the bill would make the advertised price of the hotel/motel room higher and people would go to a business that doesn't charge a mandatory service fee.

Forcing all hotel/motel owners to charge a service fee would be considered excess regulation.

Americans like to make their own choices. Business is very competitive here in a free market society.

Yes, LOL we are primitive.:approve:

So what are the criteria of getting paid for doing a job?

Why not leave the cook out of the bill, or the people doing the dishes, or the laundry, or the repairs, or the maintenance?

So Americans like to make the choice not to pay the waiters and (apparently) the cleaners? What if the food in the restaurant is bad, shouldn't you have the choice not to pay the chef?
 
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