Transfer functions - Complex poles

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding the behavior of systems modeled by transfer functions in the Laplace domain, particularly focusing on the implications of having complex conjugate poles and their relationship to oscillations when subjected to a unit step function. The conversation includes both theoretical aspects and practical applications related to time domain responses.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about how complex conjugate poles in a transfer function lead to oscillations when a unit step function is applied.
  • Another participant explains that complex poles indicate oscillatory behavior but do not directly cause it, describing the significance of pole locations in the complex plane.
  • A participant provides specific examples of pole locations and their corresponding oscillatory and decay characteristics, emphasizing the relationship between the x-axis and y-axis values in the complex plane.
  • There is a request for clarification on how to derive time domain responses from Laplace domain equations, particularly in the context of a specific transfer function.
  • Participants discuss the process of obtaining the output time domain function through the Inverse Laplace Transform and the implications of having poles off the x-axis for oscillatory behavior.
  • One participant acknowledges their understanding of the process but seeks further clarification on how to identify sinusoidal components in the time domain response given complex poles.
  • Another participant notes that both Laplace and Inverse Laplace Transform formulas involve integrations that can lead to sinusoidal results due to the nature of the exponential function.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the relationship between complex poles and oscillatory behavior, but there is no consensus on the specific methods for deriving time domain responses from the given transfer function. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the detailed steps needed to achieve this understanding.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific transfer functions and the implications of pole locations without resolving the mathematical steps involved in obtaining time domain responses. There are also mentions of terminology that may lead to confusion, indicating a need for clarity in definitions.

Dirac8767
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Hi,

i'm having a bit of trouble understanding how a system modeled by a transfer function in the laplace domain with no zero's and a complex conjugate pair for the poles causes an oscillation when the unit step function is applied. Any help would be appreciated

Many thanks.
 
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The complex pair does not "cause" the oscillation.
They indicate there will be one.

Think of the complex plane this way.
A pole located along the x-axis is showing the speed of an exponential response to a disturbance input. The farther to the left, the larger the negative number, the faster the exponential decays. If you were in the right half of the plane, for positive values of x, the exponential would grow, not decay and you have instability. This is why the left hand plane is the stable region.

Now poles off the x-axis appear in pairs. If the pair is right on the y axis, that corresponds to a pure oscillation which never stops. No dissipation to drain the energy. It is a pure oscillator. The higher up the axis, the faster the oscillation.

If the poles move off the axis into the left half plane, say at (-1, 1) and (-1,-1), you now have a combination [by multiplication] of the oscillation and the exponential decay. It is a damped harmonic oscillator.

So the following points correspond to exponentially decaying oscillations which are ...
(-0.1, 0.1) and (-0.1,-0.1) very low freq, very slowly decaying
(-0.1, 1000) and (-0.1,-1000) very high freq, very slowly decaying
(-1000, 0.1) and (-1000,-0.1) very low freq, very fast decaying
(-1000, 1000) and (-1000,-1000) very high freq, very fast decaying

The X axis value indicates the exponential rate [negative is decay, positive is growth => instability]
The Y axis value indicates the oscillatory rate

Hope that helps
 
Last edited:
Yeh that is helpful thanks, i was wondering if anyone could explain it in terms of Laplace domain equations and time responses etc as that is what I am struggling with.

many thanks
 
Laplace domain equations ??
Do you mean the Laplace Transform Integral ?
 
Sorry i didnt explain myself very well, say you have a system whos transfer function is;

H(s)= \frac{5}{s^2 + 4S + 5}

When the input is a step response, the output will be a decaying sinusoid before it reaches a steady state, I would like some help in understanding how you get to a time domain response h(t) which has a sinusoid in it.
 
You mean the input is a "step function"
The output resulting from the input step function is the "step response"

To get the output Laplace transform, you multiply the Laplace Transforms of the input step function and the system's impulse response. The output time domain function is then given by the Inverse Laplace Transform of this multiplication of transforms.

Note the Laplace Transform of a system's time domain Impulse Response is the system Laplace Transform

Anytime the poles are off the X axis of the Complex Plane, there will be oscillatory behavior. In fact for the most part, only single pole systems have no oscillatory behavior. This is because all you need is 2 energy storage components in a system to get oscillation. Any two pieces of metal [in an electronic system] constitute a capacitor and thus a storage device.

The optimum response is when the dominant poles [those closest to the origin] are at 45 degrees to the X [real] axis. This gives the fastest response to a step function input while also resulting in minimum overshoot.
 
Sorry for my mix up with terminology,

yeh i understand the process of doing it but i don't know how i would do it in this scenario given that the poles are complex and I am looking for a sine or cos in the time domain response. Many thanks.
 
OK
You say you know the response will be a decaying [exponentially] sinusoid.
That's right for most systems with more than one pole, which is practically all systems.
So how does a sinusoid appear in the result ?

Both Laplace and Inverse Laplace Transform formulas are Integrations.
And both involve "e" to some power of either "s" [the complex frequency] or "t" [time]
"e" you should know can be written as the sum of sinusoids.
And from Calculus you recall that integrals of trig functions are usually also trig functions.
So the Inverse Transform integral will in general be sinusoid when going to the time
domain.
 

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