Understanding Falling with Horizontal Velocity

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a thought experiment involving a person inside a box falling in a gravitational field. Participants explore the perception of motion from both the person's perspective inside the box and that of an observer on the ground. The conversation touches on concepts of relative motion, acceleration, and the effects of gravity in a free-fall scenario.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the orientation of the floor and ceiling in the box, suggesting that if the floor is on a side face, stepping on it would imply a horizontal velocity that does not affect downward acceleration.
  • Another participant agrees that the diagram is confusing and posits that the person is floating in mid-air, suggesting that after pushing off the floor, he briefly decelerates but then resumes accelerating at one gravity.
  • Some participants express confusion over the statement regarding the person's acceleration remaining the same, arguing that gaining upward velocity should decrease acceleration, while others clarify that gravitational acceleration remains constant regardless of the person's actions.
  • There is a contention about whether the person in the box is truly floating or if he is accelerating downward at the same rate as the box, with some asserting that he perceives himself as floating due to the lack of external reference.
  • One participant emphasizes that while the man is in the box, gravity feels nonexistent to him, leading to the conclusion that he does not perceive any acceleration.
  • Another participant argues that the man cannot catch up to the room until he reaches the ceiling, as both are accelerating at the same rate, and the ceiling would apply a downward force upon contact.
  • A mathematical perspective is introduced, where a participant calculates the velocities of the man and the room after he pushes off, highlighting that while they accelerate at the same rate, their speeds differ, leading to a relative velocity that remains constant.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the nature of motion and perception in the thought experiment. There is no consensus on the interpretation of the scenario, particularly concerning the effects of gravity and the implications of the person's actions within the box.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the limitations of the thought experiment, including the unclear orientation of the box's faces and the assumptions about the person's perception of gravity and motion. The discussion also highlights the complexity of relative motion in a free-fall context.

Figaro
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In the book I'm reading, there is a discussion about how a person inside a "box" falling in a gravitation field would see himself as compared to someone on the ground. It is as follows

"While the guy is asleep, put him in a spacious box elaborately furnished inside to look exactly like his living
room. We then drop the box from a high-flying airplane. When our friend wakes up, he thinks that he is in his living room. Curiously, though, he feels that he is floating. To an observer on the ground, our friend and his living room are hurtling toward a crunching rendezvous with the ground. Our friend, however, is blissfully unaware of the impending disaster. Since he is accelerating downward at the same rate as the box and all the objects contained inside, he feels that he is not moving downward at all relative to his surroundings. A slight spring in his step and he finds himself drifting toward the ceiling. He feels that he is floating. But this action is interpreted by the ground observer quite differently: our friend, by stepping on the floor, has at the same time decreased slightly his downward velocity and increased slightly the box’s downward velocity. He thinks he is floating upward but in reality his downward plunge is accelerating at the same rate as before."

Image.jpg


My questions here are:
1) Where is the floor and ceiling according to the image? It seems unclear as to where it is although given the position of the window, the ceiling should be the top face.
2) My confusion is somehow originating from question 1, if the floor is on the "side" say, left face of the room (since his feet is on that face although it's weird to have a ceiling with windows), by stepping on that face, the outside observer would view him having a horizontal velocity, but horizontal velocity doesn't affect the downward acceleration. So I think what he had done was that he stepped on the bottom face (with the carpet?) and having upward velocity, but this motion was perceived by the ground observer as the guy decreasing his downward velocity and the box gaining downward velocity.
3) What is the statement "accelerating at the same rate as before" pertaining? If he stepped on the floor, he gained upward velocity so the acceleration should decrease right? Or is it the gravitational acceleration in which regardless of what you are doing, it is pulling you at the same rate?
 
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I agree the diagram is confusing. I think the guy is supposed to be "floating in mid-air" on his back. Presumably he was lying on his back after we knocked him out and floated upwards when he pushed off the floor trying to stand up.

As he kicked off the floor he did decelerate briefly, yes. Once he's no longer touching the floor, though, he is again accelerating at one gravity as seen by the guy on the ground, just traveling slightly slower than the boxuntil he bumps into the roof.
 
Ibix said:
I agree the diagram is confusing. I think the guy is supposed to be "floating in mid-air" on his back. Presumably he was lying on his back after we knocked him out and floated upwards when he pushed off the floor trying to stand up.

As he kicked off the floor he did decelerate briefly, yes. Once he's no longer touching the floor, though, he is again accelerating at one gravity as seen by the guy on the ground, just traveling slightly slower than the boxuntil he bumps into the roof.
Thanks for the clarification but somehow the last sentence is confusing "He thinks he is floating upward but in reality his downward plunge is accelerating at the same rate as before." First, the process of him floating upward is only known to him since he doesn't know that he is indeed falling, so it doesn't have anything to do with him KNOWING that his acceleration is the same as before. Only the outside observer can tell that even though he "floated" upward for a while, he is still falling at the same rate, and it is kinda redundant to say the last statement knowing that the ground observer already knows that the guy inside is falling, so he should have the same acceleration otherwise.
 
Where is this coming from? It's not very clear, I think.

Neither view is right or wrong or "in reality". The guy in the box is floating upwards in zero g ascfar as he is concerned. As far as the person on the ground is concerned both he and the room are accelerating at 9.81ms -2, but the room is always moving a couple of centimeters per second faster than the man.
 
Ibix said:
Where is this coming from? It's not very clear, I think.

Neither view is right or wrong or "in reality". The guy in the box is floating upwards in zero g ascfar as he is concerned. As far as the person on the ground is concerned both he and the room are accelerating at 9.81ms -2, but the room is always moving a couple of centimeters per second faster than the man.
The room is always moving a couple of centimeters per second faster than the man during the process when the man stepped on the floor but eventually acceleration will counteract the upward motion and he will fall at the same rate again right? Also, given that the room is big or his upward velocity is small enough so that he will not reach the ceiling, he doesn't need to bump into the ceiling before he starts falling at the same rate (as you've said in post #2) again right?
 
Figaro said:
The room is always moving a couple of centimeters per second faster than the man during the process when the man stepped on the floor but eventually acceleration will counteract the upward motion and he will fall at the same rate again right? Also, given that the room is big or his upward velocity is small enough so that he will not reach the ceiling, he doesn't need to bump into the ceiling before he starts falling at the same rate (as you've said in post #2) again right?

The whole point of this thought experiment is that, while the man is in his room, gravity is doing precisely nothing to him. To him, there is no gravity. Nothing is accelerating.
 
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Figaro said:
eventually acceleration will counteract the upward motion and he will fall at the same rate again right?

Not relative to the room, no. Relative to the room, the man is not accelerating at all. That's the point.

Figaro said:
given that the room is big or his upward velocity is small enough so that he will not reach the ceiling, he doesn't need to bump into the ceiling before he starts falling at the same rate (as you've said in post #2) again right?

No. Until the man bumps into the ceiling, he will continue to rise at a constant velocity relative to the room. (Unless of course the whole thing hits the ground before that happens.)
 
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Figaro said:
The room is always moving a couple of centimeters per second faster than the man during the process when the man stepped on the floor but eventually acceleration will counteract the upward motion and he will fall at the same rate again right?
No. Since both have the same acceleration, the man cannot catch up with the room, until he reaches the ceiling. The ceiling will then apply a downwards force to him, increasing his acceleration temporally, so he will reach the same vertical speed as the room (or higher if he bounces from the ceiling).
 
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Say that, according to the outside observer, the room has accelerated to 100m/s when the man pushes off. He slows down slightly and is now moving at 99.98m/s, while the room speeds up slightly and is now moving at 100.001m/s. They both continue to accelerate at 9.8m/s2. So at a time ##t## seconds after the man pushes off the room is falling at ##(100.001+9.8t)##m/s and the man is falling at ##(99.98+9.8t)##m/s. The relative velocity between the two is ##(100.001+9.8t-(99.98+9.8t))=0.021##m/s, and is independent of time.

The man and the room are accelerating at the same rate. They are not moving at the same speed. This is true in all frames.
 
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Ibix said:
Say that, according to the outside observer, the room has accelerated to 100m/s when the man pushes off. He slows down slightly and is now moving at 99.98m/s, while the room speeds up slightly and is now moving at 100.001m/s. They both continue to accelerate at 9.8m/s2. So at a time ##t## seconds after the man pushes off the room is falling at ##(100.001+9.8t)##m/s and the man is falling at ##(99.98+9.8t)##m/s. The relative velocity between the two is ##(100.001+9.8t-(99.98+9.8t))=0.021##m/s, and is independent of time.

The man and the room are accelerating at the same rate. They are not moving at the same speed. This is true in all frames.
This example really cleared up the confusion. They are not moving at the same speed, so the room will eventually hit the guy. Though in the whole process, the guy is falling at the same rate as the room. Thanks for the clarification!
 

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