Understanding some concepts of electrostatics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around concepts in electrostatics, specifically the relationship between electric field (E) and electric potential (V), as well as the work done in moving a charge through an electric field. Participants explore the mathematical definitions and implications of these concepts, seeking clarity on the negative signs in the equations involved.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about why E equals the negative gradient of V, questioning the necessity of the negative sign.
  • Another participant explains that E = -∇(V) relates to the concept of force being the negative gradient of potential energy, suggesting that this reflects Newton's laws.
  • There is a discussion about the work done in moving a charge, with one participant questioning the presence of the negative sign in the work equation W = -Q∫(E·dl) and its implications regarding work done against the field.
  • Participants discuss the integration limits and the implications of reversing them, with one participant noting that the negative sign can be eliminated by changing the limits of integration.
  • Another participant clarifies that integrating in the correct direction negates the need for a negative sign in the equation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the mathematical relationships involved but exhibit uncertainty regarding the interpretation of the negative signs in the equations and the implications of integration limits. The discussion remains unresolved on the conceptual understanding of these aspects.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential misunderstandings of the definitions of work and the gradient, as well as the dependence on how integration limits are defined and applied in the context of electrostatics.

Vyse007
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I was just reviewing some of my concepts of electrostatics, and I am really confused in some things.
1) Why does E equal the negative gradient of V? I understand the definition of the gradient, but in my mind I am just unable to grasp as to why it should be negative only.
2) Why is the work done in moving a charge through an electric field given by W= -Q[tex]\int^{a}_{b}[/tex]E.dl , where a is the initial position and b is the final position? I mean, how did the negative sign end up there? From what I read about the definition of work, its simply the dot product of the force and the displacement. Then why is it negative? Also, isn't work done against the field positive?

I am just unable to visualize these questions in my head. Any help would be really appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
 
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[tex]E = - \nabla(V)[/tex]
because of:
[tex]EQ = Force = -\nabla(potential \ energy) = -\nabla(QV)[/tex]
'Force equals the negative gradient of potenial energy' is just another way of saying Newton's laws. Intuitively, it means that the force is always in the direction that would decrease the object's potential energy fastest.

2)
[tex]W = -Q {\int_b}^a E\cdot(L) = Q {\int_a}^b E\cdot(L)[/tex]
 
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Hmmm...the first seems quite understandable. But I don't know about the second. Of course I know that the -ve sign will vanish by reversing the limits, but I really don't think that's the reason how it got there. If so, then why in the derivation we have reverse limits in the first place? When we think of integrating a differential element, we always put the lower limit as the initial position right?
 
Yes, and you wrote that a was the initial position, so a should be the lower limit.
The general rule for integration:
[tex]{\int_a}^b \ \frac{df}{dx} \ dx = f(b) - f(a)[/tex]
So integrating from a to b means b should be at the higher up part of the integral sign.
 
Sorry my bad...guess I just got confused there. So to sum it up, in the formula there is no -ve sign right?
 
Technically, the equation you wrote is also correct, because it is integrating in the opposite direction, so the minus sign makes the equation correct.
But if you integrate in the correct direction (as I have done), then there is no minus sign.
 
Alright..thanks a lot. Finally got it cleared. :-)
 

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