Understanding the word Schmutzdecke

[fresh_42]

I find that this site https://www.waywordradio.org/ is very skillful in their ability to track down the origins of words and phrases.

First time I have serious trouble to understand my own language ...

schmutzdecke
n.— «After the filter has been operated for some time a gelatinous layer (Schmutzdecke of Piefke) is formed of such imperviousness that each square meter of surface will no longer furnish as much as 3 cubic meters (800 gallons) of water in twenty-four hours.…Whenever the demand for the filter is not too great it is allowed to rest after cleaning for some time, in the belief that those particles of the dirt deposit (Schmutzdecke) which have penetrated unto the lower layers will be oxidized under prolonged contact with the air.»

https://www.waywordradio.org/schmutzdecke_5/

W(TH) are they talking about?

 

[anorlunda]

Wow, that's a tough one schmutzdecke. Looking at the report they link it sounds like "layer of dirt" or "dirt deposit", or less politely "crap."

 

[sysprog]

schmutze $≈$ dreck

 

[fresh_42]

Wow, that's a tough one schmutzdecke. Looking at the report they link it sounds like "layer of dirt" or "dirt deposit", or less politely "crap."

Decke means a cover, either literally as a piece of cloth or as something covered by it, e.g. dirt = Schmutz. So Schmutzdecke is a layer of dirt or a cover you use in order to make it dirty instead of your cloths. Here it's probably the first: a layer of dirt (accumulated over the years).

But a) why the need for an import into English and b) is it really a layer of dirt or a cover not to get dirty? Btw. a dirty cover can also be named Schmutzdecke, as a cover which got dirty and now is a dirty+cover.

However, I did not understand the description at all: gallons? dirt per cubic meter?

 

[sysprog]

The description seems to be making reference to a befouled screen that due to its befoulment can no longer pass as much liquid.

 

[Mark44]

First time I have serious trouble to understand my own language

The "schmutz" part is Yiddish in origin. See https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/schmutz.

 

[anorlunda]

But a) why the need for an import into English

The report seems to be based on an American who visited Europe in the 1800s. He observed how things worked there and reported back. He probably used some words the workers told him without understanding and without translation. He also may not have understood the practices he was trying to describe.

The origins of words are not necessarily logical. It is entirely plausible that some of our PF discussions based on people's misunderstandings could themselves become the basis of future language.

In Sweden, they had an academy or a board of experts who were the language police for the Swedish language. I think France has one also. Is there something like that in Germany?

Contrast that with English. My first name is Dick; a 4 letter word. There are hundreds (thousands?) of synonyms for that in English. It is trivially easy for a movie or even a popular YouTube video or a tweet to create new synonyms for that overnight. We have no language police.

 

[fresh_42]

The "schmutz" part is Yiddish in origin. See https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/schmutz.

Yes, and cover is as interesting. Although cover and Decke are apparently of different origin (cover from Latin coperire, decken from old German deccen), they share the same constructions:

• the double meaning of a cover and to cover, literally and as metaphor for to hide
• ent-decken, auf-decken = dis-cover
• to cover a player = Spieler decken
• Decktransformation = covering transformation

I have only found one discrepancy: our stallions decken mares, whereas yours mate.

 

[fresh_42]

In Sweden, they had an academy or a board of experts who were the language police for the Swedish language. I think France has one also. Is there something like that in Germany?

Well, regarding all the anglicisms and wrongly set apostrophes in the genitive there definitely should. We even have false imports of english words. Our cellphones are called "Handy" (pronounced english). The anglicisms are sometimes annoying. Since long we do not have Besprechungen anymore, no, we have meetings. If they have a poll or prize competition on tv, people are requested to vote (German conjugation: voten!) instead of abstimmen. And if you watch ads, you will get the impression you cannot sell anything anymore without some fancy english adjectives. And computer english adds up to it: e.g. to download is downloaden.

We have a standard lexicon for everything connected to language, a publisher for spelling, etymology, grammar etc.

And there is a famous, well, entertainer in a way, whose subject is the language: in books, readings on tv shows etc. He evolved to a quasi instance.

 

[anorlunda]

I'm reminded with amusement of the 1980s. I lived in Sweden when the first computers with mice were imported. The instructions said, "Hold the mouse in your hand and ..." The Swedes giggled because mus in Swedish has the same slang meaning as beaver in English. The academics fussed and fumed and pretended to be greatly offended. They invented several ways to avoid saying mus, using only proper Swedish words. None of them stuck.

I am an anarchist when it comes to language.

BTW, it works two ways. I saw a car with the license plate MEINBEAMER, and a phrase frequently heard in Florida is "un six pack de cerveza." It's fun.

 

[fresh_42]

I am an anarchist when it comes to language.

Yes, me, too. Problem is: you have to master a language before you can bend it. Many people confuse the direction.

 

[dextercioby]

Well, regarding all the anglicisms and wrongly set apostrophes in the genitive there definitely should. We even have false imports of english words. Our cellphones are called "Handy" (pronounced english). The anglicisms are sometimes annoying. Since long we do not have Besprechungen anymore, no, we have meetings. If they have a poll or prize competition on tv, people are requested to vote (German conjugation: voten!) instead of abstimmen. And if you watch ads, you will get the impression you cannot sell anything anymore without some fancy english adjectives. And computer english adds up to it: e.g. to download is downloaden.

We have a standard lexicon for everything connected to language, a publisher for spelling, etymology, grammar etc.

And there is a famous, well, entertainer in a way, whose subject is the language: in books, readings on tv shows etc. He evolved to a quasi instance.

Economical globalization, moving 90% of production/manufacturing to China and having multinational companies led to the advance of English (mostly American English) into European languages over the past 30 years. I think the language who stood up best to this offense was the French. My Romanian is 3-4 times more corrupted than your German.
@bold part: das Duden?

 

[fresh_42]

@bold part: das Duden?

Der Duden, yes.

 

[sysprog]

Yes, me, too. Problem is: you have to master a language before you can bend it. Many people confuse the direction.

You must master horsemanship before you can reliably ride without tack, but to be a 4-horse carriage driver, you need little more than sitzfleisch (ausdauer bei einer sitzenden tätigkeit)
-- ability to endure/manage a sedentary activity.

 

[fresh_42]

you need little more than sitzfleisch

Well, it depends ...

 

[dextercioby]

Der Duden, yes.

Ich meinte das Duden (Wörterbuch). Duden is a name just like the French homologue Larousse, why should it have an article, and if, by absurd, it did, why would it be masculine?

 

[sysprog]

Well, it depends ...

Vous avez raison, aber das ist stunt fahren, mein guter Herr ;-)

 

[fresh_42]

Ich meinte das Duden (Wörterbuch). Duden is a name just like the French homologue Larousse, why should it have an article, and if, by absurd, it did, why would it be masculine?

It is "das Wörterbuch" as the article is always the one of the last noun, book in this case. Why it is "der Duden"? I have no idea, presumably because it was a man. It is also "der Larousse" and "der Webster".

Especially funny is it when it comes to rivers. The Rhine is male and the Danube female. In French, they are both male. However, la Seine and la Loires are female.

But before you start to complain about this chaos, please answer this first:
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/today-i-learned.783257/page-139#post-6158300

 

[sysprog]

... the musical instrument that in England is 'the French horn', in France is 'le cor Anglais' ...

 

[fresh_42]

... the musical instrument that in England is 'the French horn', in France is 'le cor Anglais' ...

Wikipedia says something else:
The common Horn is French horn in english and cor d'harmonie in french; Horn or Waldhorn in german.
Das Englischhorn (German) is cor anglais in french and english, and english horn as well.
They are two different instruments. The english horn isn't even a horn, it's an oboe.

 

[diogenesNY]

schmutzdecke - what a wonderful word!

One that I suspect your average New Yorker would intuitively grasp.

I plan to make an effort to include it into my everyday vocabulary!

diogenesNY

 

[sysprog]

Wikipedia says something else:
The common Horn is French horn in english and cor d'harmonie in french; Horn or Waldhorn in german.
Das Englischhorn (German) is cor anglais in french and english, and english horn as well.
They are two different instruments. The english horn isn't even a horn, it's an oboe.

I'll defer to your correction here -- I was recalling something that I thought I heard from a teacher decades ago --

... the 'French horn':

 

[fresh_42]

That's what I said, too. I only added

The cor anglais (UK: /ˌkɔːr ˈɒŋɡleɪ/, US: /- ɑːŋˈɡleɪ/ or original French: [kɔʁ ɑ̃ɡlɛ]; plural: cors anglais) or English horn in North America, is a double-reed woodwind instrument in the oboe family.

 

[sysprog]

That's what I said, too. I only added

The cor anglais (UK: /ˌkɔːr ˈɒŋɡleɪ/, US: /- ɑːŋˈɡleɪ/ or original French: [kɔʁ ɑ̃ɡlɛ]; plural: cors anglais) or English horn in North America, is a double-reed woodwind instrument in the oboe family.

I accepted your correction of what I had said (from my post: "I'll defer to your correction here --"), and I agree with your point that a member of the oboe family is an oboe, and not really a horn.

 

[fresh_42]

I had commilitones who played trumpet, resp. horn. It was often a party gag to make a competition who could longer blow a sheet of paper on the wall or play on a garden hose. The latter works astonishingly well, whereas the former is more of an exercise.

 

[sysprog]

When I was a teenager I had a neighbor friend who played the trumpet, and he was trying to get me started in learning how to play it -- he said not to bother with the valves at first -- just think of the note -- like a bugle -- that worked rather better than I had supposed it would ...

 

[WWGD]

Oboe, don't try to understand the logic. We park in the driveway and drive in the parkway, so the logic boat left long ago to not return.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I'm reminded with amusement of the 1980s. I lived in Sweden when the first computers with mice were imported. The instructions said, "Hold the mouse in your hand and ..." The Swedes giggled because mus in Swedish has the same slang meaning as beaver in English. The academics fussed and fumed and pretended to be greatly offended. They invented several ways to avoid saying mus, using only proper Swedish words. None of them stuck.

Perhaps I'm having a brain freeze today, but just so I understand this. Does "mus" in Swedish refer to a (crude & informal) description of female genitalia (in the same way that "beaver" in English has been used, as opposed to the animal)?

My excuse for being dense today is that I'm feeling a little under the weather!

 

[WWGD]

Perhaps I'm having a brain freeze today, but just so I understand this. Does "mus" in Swedish refer to a (crude & informal) description of female genitalia (in the same way that "beaver" in English has been used, as opposed to the animal)?

My excuse for being dense today is that I'm feeling a little under the weather!

I wonder if they had a version of The Three "Mus keteers" , but maybe for adult films? :)

 

[anorlunda]

My excuse for being dense today is that I'm feeling a little under the weather!

Your guess was correct.

 

[fresh_42]

Your guess was correct.

We say Muschi which is basically the translation of kitty and refers to cats. Mus is a mush here, and our beavers are bears.

 

[almostvoid]

The "schmutz" part is Yiddish in origin. See https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/schmutz.

Wikipedia is dodgy. It asigns whatever by decree not peer research. Schmutz ist Deutsch. It leaked into Yiddish as I had a Polish friend who spoke this. The accentuation of the words are more sloshed in the mouth which harks back to older times in Poland when German was au current - minus a few localized variables in expression.

 

[mjc123]

I have only found one discrepancy: our stallions decken mares, whereas yours mate.

It is a technical term in horse breeding; the stallion covers the mare.
Metaphorically: "You'll have your daughter covered with a Barbary horse" (Othello)

 

[Stavros Kiri]

schmutzdecke - what a wonderful word!

One that I suspect your average New Yorker would intuitively grasp.

I plan to make an effort to include it into my everyday vocabulary!

diogenesNY

Aside the joke, shouldn't the language be English? (PF rules ...)

 

[Asymptotic]

Decke means a cover, either literally as a piece of cloth or as something covered by it, e.g. dirt = Schmutz. So Schmutzdecke is a layer of dirt or a cover you use in order to make it dirty instead of your cloths. Here it's probably the first: a layer of dirt (accumulated over the years).

But a) why the need for an import into English and b) is it really a layer of dirt or a cover not to get dirty? Btw. a dirty cover can also be named Schmutzdecke, as a cover which got dirty and now is a dirty+cover.

However, I did not understand the description at all: gallons? dirt per cubic meter?

Ran into this term when teaching myself about cooling tower water filtration. It wasn't directly applicable in that application and I didn't delve into it, but these top-line excerpts appear to be a decent gloss on the subject.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/slow-sand-filter

 

[pinball1970]

I accepted your correction of what I had said (from my post: "I'll defer to your correction here --"), and I agree with your point that a member of the oboe family is an oboe, and not really a horn.

The flute is in the woodwind section? It's a metal though? It's not reeded either

 

[sysprog]

The flute is in the woodwind section? It's a metal though? It's not reeded either

The flute of today, when it's in an orchestra, is usually regarded as being in the woodwind section, as it is based on non-metallic predecessors (that are still made today). Even though a modern horn being called a horn is due to the fact that in the past, horns were made of animal horn (as some of them still are today), we don't encounter a similar section name assignment convention quandary regarding them as we do regarding metallic flutes, most of which are made at least partly of silver and a few of which are made entirely of gold (James Galway explains that his favorite flutes are made of 24K gold not for purposes of ostentatiousness, but for the sonic impedance of gold, and for other desirable characteristics of that metal, such as its resistance to oxidation); modern horns, pretty much all of which are metallic, are simply regarded as part of the brass section.

 

[almostvoid]

Aside the joke, shouldn't the language be English? (PF rules ...)

Where do you think English came from? Angles and Saxons.

 

[Stavros Kiri]

Where do you think English came from? Angles and Saxons.

"Came from" ... not "is"!

 

[fresh_42]

"Came from" ... not "is"!

"Talk in" ... not "about"!

 

[Stavros Kiri]

"Talk in" ... not "about"!

What do you mean?
[i.e. (probably, ~ ... : ) " "Talk in [what language?]" ... not "about [what language?]"! "]

 

[fresh_42]

Aside the joke, shouldn't the language be English? (PF rules ...)

The rules demand to talk in English, not about English. But in this case it is both: I have read 'schmutzdecke' in an English text.

 

[Stavros Kiri]

The rules demand to talk in English, not about English. But in this case it is both: I have read 'schmutzdecke' in an English text.

But inevitably there's a certain amount of German involved in this thread that we do not understand! [No offense or anything else meant! ...]

 

[pinball1970]

Where do you think English came from? Angles and Saxons.

Plenty of Romans Celts Vikings and Greek influence in there too. I'm sure we've been here before? Deja vu. Yes and French

 

[fresh_42]

But inevitably there's a certain amount of German involved in this thread that we do not understand! [No offense or anything else meant! ...]

For a few words now and then you can use Google / Chrome translate if you wish to know the meaning - regardless which language. Some statements or puns require the use of a foreign language, esp. if language is the subject of the thread.

Rules are made to have a guideline. They do not mean Prussian laws! If somebody wants to make a pun in some language or discusses the origin of certain English words, exceptions can be tolerated.

This does not mean members can hide questionable content behind foreign words! I will translate, delete and warn such attempts. E.g. I have done so as someone used the most favorite Greek swear word $\mu$***.

But e.g. to disallow a debate why there is no English word for (schweigen $\approx$ remain silent, but it is not 100% accurate) would be ridiculous.

 

[Stavros Kiri]

For a few words now and then you can use Google / Chrome translate if you wish to know the meaning - regardless which language. Some statements or puns require the use of a foreign language, esp. if language is the subject of the thread.

Rules are made to have a guideline. They do not mean Prussian laws! If somebody wants to make a pun in some language or discusses the origin of certain English words, exceptions can be tolerated.

This does not mean members can hide questionable content behind foreign words! I will translate, delete and warn such attempts. E.g. I have done so as someone used the most favorite Greek swear word $\mu$***.

But e.g. to disallow a debate why there is no English word for (schweigen $\approx$ remain silent, but it is not 100% accurate) would be ridiculous.

It makes sense to agree that this discussion is within limmits.

as someone used the most favorite Greek swear word $\mu$***.

Lol
I'm sursprised someone actually did that in PF! ...

 

[DrDu]

The "schmutz" part is Yiddish in origin. See https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/schmutz.

Yes, but "Schmutzdecke" is probably not:
http://www.sprachlog.de/2009/01/01/schmutzedecke/

 

[DrDu]

The expression seems to be taken from:

Piefke C. (1887) Die Principien der Reinwasser-Gewinnung vermittelst Filtration. In: Die Principien der Reinwasser-Gewinnung vermittelst Filtration. Springer, Berlin, Heidelberg
https://rd.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-662-33142-2_1or
Piefke, C. Zeitschr. f. Hygiene. (1889) 7: 115. https://doi.org/10.1007/BF02188333

After all, the article calls it the "Schmutzdecke of Piefke".

 

[almostvoid]

Yes, but "Schmutzdecke" is probably not:
http://www.sprachlog.de/2009/01/01/schmutzedecke/

Sowas passiert ueberall. Wir alle machen da mit.

 

[almostvoid]

"Came from" ... not "is"!

"Came from" ... not "is"!

Are you saying the -past- is the -came from- and therefore not being in the present -is- invalidates the comment? Well pardon if so- you see English is my second language. I not as perfect as you. Maybe the second language you are familiar with is better than my clumsy not grammatically correct English. Maybe we can compare notes?