Unexpected Zeta and Overshoot relation

  • Thread starter Thread starter Wxfsa
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Relation
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the damping ratio (zeta) and overshoot in a feedback control system, particularly focusing on a 5th-order system's response to a step input. Participants explore whether the established formula for overshoot is applicable to higher-order systems and the implications of pole-zero cancellation.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation, Debate/contested, Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a feedback control system with a zeta of 0.94, expecting minimal overshoot based on a formula, but observes unexpected behavior in the step response.
  • Another participant confirms that the pole and zero at the origin cancel, resulting in a 5th-order system, and suggests that the actual response should be computed rather than relying on formulas.
  • A third participant notes that the 5th-order system has a dominant complex pole pair with a quality factor (Qp) of approximately 0.52, indicating a potential for small overshoot, contingent on the closed-loop conditions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty about the applicability of the overshoot formula to higher-order systems, with some agreeing on the characteristics of the 5th-order system while others question the reliance on traditional formulas.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in applying second-order system formulas to higher-order systems, as well as the dependence on specific pole configurations and closed-loop conditions.

Wxfsa
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
I have a designed feedback control system trying to minimize the overshoot and the setting time. The zeta I (think) ended up with is 0.94. According to this formula:
8058482ea4375b100288947a97eba5d3.png

I am supposed to have a very small overshoot. However the step response of the system looks like this:
ZGlafdw.png

The poles are:
0.0000 + 0.0000i (0 is also a zero, so do they cancel?)
-2.0000 + 0.0000i
-0.5313 + 0.1740i
-0.5313 - 0.1740i
-0.5600 + 0.0000i
-0.0600 + 0.0000i

Does that formula apply only for second order system? Or must I have miscalculated something?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Wxfsa said:
Does that formula apply only for second order system? Or must I have miscalculated something?
Yes, the pole & zero at the origin cancel.
Leaving you with a whopping 5th-order system. I wouldn't know any other way than to compute the actual response to a step input, eschewing any and all a priori formulas.
 
Great, thanks.
 
Wxfsa said:
Does that formula apply only for second order system? Or must I have miscalculated something?

Your 5th order system has only one dominant complex pole pair with a pole-Q of app. Qp=0.52. The remaining poles are negative-real.
Hence, I agree with you that we can expect a rather small overshoot only (assuming that the mentioned poles apply to closed-loop conditions).
 

Similar threads

Replies
1
Views
3K
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
Replies
3
Views
2K
Replies
3
Views
1K
Replies
16
Views
5K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
5K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K