Unravelling the Mystery of Light's Constant Speed: Challenges and Proofs

michael879
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I get the theory of special relativity, it is the logical conclusion drawn from the two facts that:
a) the laws of physics are the same in all reference frames
b) the speed of light is constant in all reference frames

what I don't get is why einstein thought the speed of light was constant in all reference frames. What proof of that is there even now? I know maxwell came up with c which is like 1/(m0*e0) or something which kinda suggests it but why couldn't that just be the initial velocity of light if the emitter was at rest with the "global reference frame".

Also, I am not convinced that theory is true. I mean, I've heard of all these experiments "proving" general and special relativity, but I've never seen any documentation of any or any real numbers. I've searched to... Can someone please give me some good links before I start talking about a giant physics conspiracy?
 
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Well first, there are already a couple of active threads asking this same question. Have a look at them.

Second, an awful lot of people have put an awful lot of effort into this concept over the past 100 years. Don't be so quick to think there is a conspiracy: accept your own ignorance and make an effort to learn.

Here's a start: google "gps relativity" and "Michelson Morley experiment"
 
dude I was joking, I don't actually think relativity is wrong I am just curious how einstein came up with it. I've been taught it 3 times and they always tell me the postulates but they don't say how he came up with them or why they are known to be true. And btw, my effort to learn was asking on a forum..
 
and I've seen the michelson-morley experiment, it proves nothing to me except that there can't be an aether stationary to the sun's reference frame.
 
michael879 said:
and I've seen the michelson-morley experiment, it proves nothing to me except that there can't be an aether stationary to the sun's reference frame.

no, what it means is that the aether is moving around the Sun with the Earth. in the spring season when the Earth is moving the opposite direction around the Sun as it is moving now, the aether continues to follow us around the sun which is why it's so damn hard to detect a fringe shift in the Michaelson-Morley experiment. really, the aether is really :wink: there, it's just that we can't detect it because we are never moving through it. and that is because it moves along with the Earth.
 
michael879 said:
what I don't get is why einstein thought the speed of light was constant in all reference frames.
He didn't say that for "all reference frames", he said that for "all inertial reference frames".
What proof of that is there even now?
Inertial reference frames are defined as those reference frames (or coordinate systems) in which Newton's laws hold, and one of the requirements for that is that all one-way speeds are isotropic.
they always tell me the postulates but they don't say how he came up with them or why they are known to be true
They are called "postulates" to indicate that they are to be accepted as true for the sake of argument. They can't be proven by experiment.
rbj said:
no, what it means is that the aether is moving around the Sun with the Earth. in the spring season when the Earth is moving the opposite direction around the Sun as it is moving now, the aether continues to follow us around the sun which is why it's so damn hard to detect a fringe shift in the Michaelson-Morley experiment. really, the aether is really there, it's just that we can't detect it because we are never moving through it. and that is because it moves along with the Earth.
Lorentz ether theory (aka GGT) is empirically equivalent to SR.
 
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michael879 said:
dude I was joking
Fair enough, but there are an awful lot of crackpots out there and we're wary of that here.
 
russ_watters said:
Fair enough, but there are an awful lot of crackpots out there and we're wary of that here.

Sorry to butt in, but I'm one of the crackpots. I've been looking at this for a while now, without the baggage of a formal eduation in the subject.

Apologies if I've got this wrong, but are we saying that Relativity doesn't apply in a Universe where acceleration is possible ?

Can we really have an 'accepted' scientific theory that only works if nothing accelerates ?

( Deliberately argumetatively phrased, but a serious question anyway ? )
 
M1keh said:
Sorry to butt in, but I'm one of the crackpots. I've been looking at this for a while now, without the baggage of a formal eduation in the subject.

Apologies if I've got this wrong, but are we saying that Relativity doesn't apply in a Universe where acceleration is possible ?

Can we really have an 'accepted' scientific theory that only works if nothing accelerates ?

You got it wrong.

What have been talked about is confined only to Special Relativity. It is General Relativity, not the topic of this discussion, that includes accelerating and gravitational fields. Physics and physicists are not that dumb to ignore such a huge hole in a theory, especially when there are plenty of empiricial evidence.

Zz.
 
  • #10
Ok. Apologies. Just trying to get someone to explain to me how it works. No matter how many texts I see, it just doesn't sink in. Guess I'll have to keep trying.
 
  • #11
I agree with Michael that the "Michelson Morley experiment" does not prove a thing except that there is no aether to effect the speed of light. If I never see this posted as a proof of SR again I will be happy.

Russ. Could you please give us a short little explanation of how the global positioning system proves SR. Thanks.
 
  • #12
michael879 said:
Also, I am not convinced that theory is true. I mean, I've heard of all these experiments "proving" general and special relativity, but I've never seen any documentation of any or any real numbers. I've searched to... Can someone please give me some good links before I start talking about a giant physics conspiracy?

First of there, there's nothing in physics that is "proven" the same way you do for mathematics. Experimental observations are used to verify a theory or principle. The more observations of different types are discovered, the higher the degree of certainty, and the more convincing it becomes.

Secondly, here are all the experimental results that are totally consistent with the postulates of SR. So knock yourself out.

1. "Severe Limits on Variations of the Speed of Light with Frequency", B. Schaefer, PRL v.82, p.4964 (1999). Also see Physics News Update report at http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/1999/split/pnu432-2.htm . This is the most accurate measurement to-date that c is independent of frequency/wavelength. If photons have any mass, or if c isn't a constant, this would manifest itself as a variation in speed at different frequencies. So far, none has been detected.

2. http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/2000/split/pnu484-1.htm . This is the most recent and accurate determination that the speed of light is independent of the speed of the source.

3. http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/2002/split/590-1.html . Again, this is the mostp recise test yet that the speed of light is independent of the direction of propagation.

4. "Tests of Relativity Using a Cryogenic Optical Resonator", C. Braxmaier et al., PRL v.88, p.010401 (2002). Ether? What ether? This is the most precise determination to-date that the speed of light is independent of the velocity of the lab frame. The experiment used a version of the famous Morley-Michealson interferometer called the Kennedy-Thorndike test. You may read the Physics News Update report at http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/2002/split/571-1.html .

In the 14th Feb. issue of Phys. Rev. Lett., there is not one, but TWO new experimental results that put a severe limit on any possible violation of the Lorentz transformation (which is built-in in Special Relativity). These two experiments present the most accurate result so far that c is velocity and earth-orientation independent. You may read the summary of one of this result at the AIP Physics News Update:

http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/2003/split/623-2.html

or better yet, read the actual papers in PRL. These two experimental evidence will be numbered 5 and 6 (in addition to the first 4 that were isted earlier).

5. "Tests of Lorentz Invariance using a Microwave Resonator", P. Wolf et al., PRL v.90, p.060403 (2003).

6. "New Limit on Signals of Lorentz Violation in Electrodynamics", J.A. Lipa et al., v.90, p.060403 (2003).

7. This time, the evidence comes from the most accurate measurement to date of the uniformity of c using a modern version of the infamous Morley-Michealson experiment.[1] Using cryogenic optical resonators, they measured for the possible anisotropy in the speed of light for over a year (as the Earth moves through space in its orbit around the sun and thus, changing its orientiation). The showed with unprecedented accuracy that the upper limit for any possible variation in c would have to be lower than 2.5 x 10^-15, which is 3 times more accurate than previous measurements.

Muller et al., PRL v.91, p.020401 (2003).

8. we have another experimental evidence for the constancy of the speed of light - this time coming from very low frequency radio waves in the frequency range of 5 to 50 Hz.[1] Again, this measurement places the upper limit on the photon rest mass (if any) at less than 4 x 10^-52 kg (yikes!).

M. Fullekrug, PRL v.93, p.043901 (2004).

Do you want more?

Zz.
 
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  • #13
gonegahgah said:
I agree with Michael that the "Michelson Morley experiment" does not prove a thing except that there is no aether to effect the speed of light. If I never see this posted as a proof of SR again I will be happy.

Then maybe you should write a paper to debunk this, because complaining about it on here means nothing.

And why, since you agreed with Micheal, that MM experiment "... it proves nothing to me except that there can't be an aether stationary to the sun's reference frame.." have anything to do with the sun in the first place is beyond me. Pick whatever "stational ether" in whatever inertial reference frame that you want. Now predict how such thing can be detected.

Russ. Could you please give us a short little explanation of how the global positioning system proves SR. Thanks.

http://www.physicscentral.com/writers/2000/will.html

Zz.
 
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  • #14
1. ... bases this estimate on the observed arrival of gamma rays from distant explosive events in the cosmos, such as gamma-ray bursters. If the speed of light (c) were slightly different for the different frequency ranges, then some light waves would show up before the others, but this is not the case. ...


This seems to be the entire proof that the speed of light is constant ? If it were different for different frequencies of light, a distant event would first appear red / blue rather than white ?

Is this logically correct ?
 
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  • #15
gonegahgah said:
I agree with Michael that the "Michelson Morley experiment" does not prove a thing except that there is no aether to effect the speed of light. If I never see this posted as a proof of SR again I will be happy.

Russ. Could you please give us a short little explanation of how the global positioning system proves SR. Thanks.


I'm not so sure ... looking at the results of the experiment it seemed to prove that the speed of light isn't constant ??

I think that's the point, it disproved a constant speed of light so they had to come up with something else so that everything they'd said over the preceding years wasn't completely wrong ??
 
  • #16
M1keh said:
1. ... bases this estimate on the observed arrival of gamma rays from distant explosive events in the cosmos, such as gamma-ray bursters. If the speed of light (c) were slightly different for the different frequency ranges, then some light waves would show up before the others, but this is not the case. ...


This seems to be the entire proof that the speed of light is constant ? If it were different for different frequencies of light, we'd see it as a distant event would first appear red / blue rather than white ?

Is this logically correct ?

Look at the dispersion law!

Pass a "white" light through a prism (it is, after all, a "medium"). Why do you think all the different frequency separates?

Furthermore, different frequencies carry different amount of energy. Unless you are also suggesting another crackpottery of light having a rest mass and that this mass varies with its energy content, this means that all of its energy is in its "motion", meaning different energy would have different velocity.

Zz.
 
  • #17
ZapperZ said:
Look at the dispersion law!

Pass a "white" light through a prism (it is, after all, a "medium"). Why do you think all the different frequency separates?

Furthermore, different frequencies carry different amount of energy. Unless you are also suggesting another crackpottery of light having a rest mass and that this mass varies with its energy content, this means that all of its energy is in its "motion", meaning different energy would have different velocity.

Zz.

No. Don't get the question. Isn't that just because of the different frequencies ? Apoligies for my ignorance, but how is it relevant ?

I'd agree that different frequencies carry different amounts of energy, but again, how does this help ?
 
  • #18
M1keh said:
No. Don't get the question. Isn't that just because of the different frequencies ? Apoligies for my ignorance, but how is it relevant ?

Different frequencies have different index of refraction in a medium. The index of refraction is the ratio of the speed of light in vacuum to the speed of light in that medium. Now do you get it?

I'd agree that different frequencies carry different amounts of energy, but again, how does this help ?

If all the energy is only in motion, this is the kinetic energy, is it not? You don't see the connection with velocity here? Er... what level of physics do you have? This is not meant as a degoratory question. I have to know at least SOME level of physics to which I can assume you know to base my answers on. You do see the problem here, don't you? I feel like I have to backpeddle several steps to explain an answer to an answer.

Zz.
 
  • #19
ZapperZ said:
Different frequencies have different index of refraction in a medium. The index of refraction is the ratio of the speed of light in vacuum to the speed of light in that medium. Now do you get it?



If all the energy is only in motion, this is the kinetic energy, is it not? You don't see the connection with velocity here? Er... what level of physics do you have? This is not meant as a degoratory question. I have to know at least SOME level of physics to which I can assume you know to base my answers on. You do see the problem here, don't you? I feel like I have to backpeddle several steps to explain an answer to an answer.

Zz.


Your reply is a bit 'derogatory', but reasonably accurate and I'm not that easily insulted.

I can see where you're going with the refraction ratio and pretty much where you're going with the kinetic energy thing, but what has this got to do with the original question :


1. ... bases this estimate on the observed arrival of gamma rays from distant explosive events in the cosmos, such as gamma-ray bursters. If the speed of light (c) were slightly different for the different frequency ranges, then some light waves would show up before the others, but this is not the case. ...


How does this prove that the speed of light is constant ?
 
  • #20
M1keh said:
Your reply is a bit 'derogatory', but reasonably accurate and I'm not that easily insulted.

I can see where you're going with the refraction ratio and pretty much where you're going with the kinetic energy thing, but what has this got to do with the original question :1. ... bases this estimate on the observed arrival of gamma rays from distant explosive events in the cosmos, such as gamma-ray bursters. If the speed of light (c) were slightly different for the different frequency ranges, then some light waves would show up before the others, but this is not the case. ...How does this prove that the speed of light is constant ?

Er... "different frequency ranges" ... meaning different energies, meaning different velocities IF you put all the energy into motion. Isn't that what I've been trying to point out?

I have no idea how to make this any clearer.

You still did not elaborate on your background, so I will continue to assume that you do know at least some undergraduate physics. I will not backpeddle anymore.

Zz.
 
  • #21
ZapperZ said:
Er... "different frequency ranges" ... meaning different energies, meaning different velocities IF you put all the energy into motion. Isn't that what I've been trying to point out?

I have no idea how to make this any clearer.

You still did not elaborate on your background, so I will continue to assume that you do know at least some undergraduate physics. I will not backpeddle anymore.

Zz.

Ah. I see. Different frequencies => different energies => different velocities.

Now I'm lost. Are you saying that each of the different frequencies does travel at different velociticies ?

Doesn't that mean that all distant events would appear blue when first viewed ?

( unless that's a big 'IF' ? )
 
  • #22
M1keh said:
Ah. I see. Different frequencies => different energies => different velocities.

Now I'm lost. Are you saying that each of the different frequencies does travel at different velociticies ?

Doesn't that mean that all distant events would appear blue when first viewed ?

( unless that's a big 'IF' ? )

OY VEY!

You were the one asking why would the different frequencies matter. The paper was reporting that IF they do matter in terms of diferent freq -> different energies -> different velocities, then different frequencies SHOULD have different speeds and arrive, in vaccum, at different times and speed! This is what is being TESTED and they found none. All the different frequencies have the same speed in vacuum.

You really need to go back and see what you were asking originally here.

Zz.
 
  • #23
ZapperZ said:
OY VEY!

You were the one asking why would the different frequencies matter. The paper was reporting that IF they do matter in terms of diferent freq -> different energies -> different velocities, then different frequencies SHOULD have different speeds and arrive, in vaccum, at different times and speed! This is what is being TESTED and they found none. All the different frequencies have the same speed in vacuum.

You really need to go back and see what you were asking originally here.

Zz.


Apologies. Lost in translation. I agree that this proves that the different frequencies did not have different velocities ...

Are they also saying that this proves that the speed of light is constant ?


( I was expecting a very quick 'Yes. Of course. Are you completely dense.' type reply ? )
 
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  • #24
M1keh said:
Sorry to butt in, but I'm one of the crackpots. I've been looking at this for a while now, without the baggage of a formal eduation in the subject.
'Ignorance is a virtue' is the second worst way of approaching science (the worst is thinking you already know everything) and you really need to fix that if you want to understand the issues here. To believe that you can figure out all of science on your own or that you have an idea that no-one else has thought of or that you know of a hole in a theory that others missed (despite your ignorance of said theory), is arrogant beyond belief. Thousands of people have worked on this issue for hundreds of years. As ZZ said - do you really think it is reasonable to believe they missed such a big flaw/limitation?

At least, however, you are asking questions...
This seems to be the entire proof that the speed of light is constant ?
What? No! The way science works is that a scientist does one experiment at a time to provide one piece of evidence for a phenomena/theory. No single paper is going to provide all the evidence - indeed, no single career is long enough to go through all of it.

We have actually given you a good handful of pieces of evidence for a constant speed of light and SR. All are interrelated/interdependent.
I'm not so sure ... looking at the results of the experiment it seemed to prove that the speed of light isn't constant ??
Either you misunderstood/misread what you were looking at or you are consulting crackpot sites that do the same. Many sites claim a positive result for the experiment despite the fact that the positive result was inside the margin for error of the experiment and didn't fit with the prediction of the experiment - which therefore makes it not a positive result. Later experiments of the same type with better error margins have confirmed the null result.
I think that's the point, it disproved a constant speed of light so they had to come up with something else so that everything they'd said over the preceding years wasn't completely wrong ??
I think you may need to start over from scratch. You have some bizarre misunderstandings of history/science. What you just said is too incoherent to even try and correct.
I agree that this proves that the different frequencies did not have different velocities ...

Are they also saying that this proves that the speed of light is constant ?
It is one piece of evidence, yes.
 
  • #25
wish I had checked on this earlier, I got a lot of comments..

first, aether, I just omitted the word inertial its what I meant, you didnt answer my question u just pointed out a mistake in it. I know what a postulate is but people don't just go around making up postulates out of nothing and use them in new theories. There must have been a significant amount of evidence that the speed of light is constant for einstein to create all of special relativity around it.

thanks zapper for the links, I plan on checking those out. I know most people don't agree with me but I view multiple experiments supporting a theory with no experiments proving it false a convincing proof of its validity. The way the MM experiment was set up it just made me think of testing whether the aether was in the suns references frame. I guess it did disprove that the only aether that could exist is one that stayed in Earth's reference frame (i.e. by being fluid or by actually following Earth (sounds like a religious theory that makes us the center of the universe lol)).

M1keh, light could logically be able to travel at speed greater than light while all frequencies still initially went the same speed. I think sound waves are like this, all frequencies travel 334 m/s (not sure) but can be viewed as going faster from different reference frames.

zapper, the frequencies don't separate because they travel different speeds in a vacuum, just because they travel different speeds in a medium which is pretty irrelevant since the photons are still going the constant speed of c (just being absorbed and reabsorbed by molecules).
 
  • #26
Aether said:
Lorentz ether theory (aka GGT) is empirically equivalent to SR.

You are mixing two different theories: LET is NOT "aka" GGT. The two theories don't even have the same transforms.
You have also been shown many times before that GGT is not empirically equivalent to SR. GGT makes same predictions as SR PROVIDED certain "ad-hoc" ADDITIONAL assumptions are being made for EACH experiment under consideration. Please re-read the C.M. Will's paper recommended to you hundreds of posts ago.
 
  • #27
clj4 said:
You are mixing two different theories: LET is NOT "aka" GGT. The two theories don't even have the same transforms.
Please show how the transforms are different.
You have also been shown many times before that GGT is not empirically equivalent to SR. GGT makes same predictions as SR PROVIDED certain "ad-hoc" ADDITIONAL assumptions are being made for EACH experiment under consideration.
In GGT, one arbitrary inertial frame is singled out as being preferred. Is this the ad-hoc additional assumption that are you referring to? Is there anything else?
Please re-read the C.M. Will's paper recommended to you hundreds of posts ago.
If there is something in that paper that you want me to consider further, then you need to spell it out here in detail and then be prepared to answer questions about it.
 
  • #28
Aether said:
Please show how the transforms are different.

We went over this in hundreds of posts before. LET uses the Lorentz transforms. GGT uses t'=t/gamma. Have you forgotten?

In GGT, one arbitrary inertial frame is singled out as being preferred. Is this the ad-hoc additional assumption that are you referring to?

no

Is there anything else?If there is something in that paper that you want me to consider further, then you need to spell it out here in detail and then be prepared to answer questions about it.

Read the paper by CMWill I recommended to you long ago.
 
  • #29
clj4 said:
We went over this in hundreds of posts before. LET uses the Lorentz transforms. GGT uses t'=t/gamma. Have you forgotten?
If LET uses the Lorentz transforms, then how is it an ether theory?
no
Then please give one example of an additional ad-hoc assumption required to make GGT empirically equivalent to SR.
 
  • #30
russ_watters said:
'Ignorance is a virtue' is the second worst way of approaching science (the worst is thinking you already know everything) and you really need to fix that if you want to understand the issues here. To believe that you can figure out all of science on your own or that you have an idea that no-one else has thought of or that you know of a hole in a theory that others missed (despite your ignorance of said theory), is arrogant beyond belief. Thousands of people have worked on this issue for hundreds of years. As ZZ said - do you really think it is reasonable to believe they missed such a big flaw/limitation?

At least, however, you are asking questions... What? No! The way science works is that a scientist does one experiment at a time to provide one piece of evidence for a phenomena/theory. No single paper is going to provide all the evidence - indeed, no single career is long enough to go through all of it.

We have actually given you a good handful of pieces of evidence for a constant speed of light and SR. All are interrelated/interdependent. Either you misunderstood/misread what you were looking at or you are consulting crackpot sites that do the same. Many sites claim a positive result for the experiment despite the fact that the positive result was inside the margin for error of the experiment and didn't fit with the prediction of the experiment - which therefore makes it not a positive result. Later experiments of the same type with better error margins have confirmed the null result. I think you may need to start over from scratch. You have some bizarre misunderstandings of history/science. What you just said is too incoherent to even try and correct. It is one piece of evidence, yes.

You're right. My answer was deliberately arrogant. It seems to be the only thing that prompts a response. Apologies. I'm still learning.

Thousands of people have worked on this issue for hundreds of years. As ZZ said - do you really think it is reasonable to believe they missed such a big flaw/limitation?

I'm sure that would have been the response when someone claimed the World wasn't flat ? :wink:

I viewed all of the links posted earlier and they all seem to be very similar. Look at a distant event. Check that all frequencies of light reach us at the same time => speed of light is constant.

Have I misunderstood or is this a fair summary ? (albeit not very scientific)
 
  • #31
michael879 said:
M1keh, light could logically be able to travel at speed greater than light while all frequencies still initially went the same speed. I think sound waves are like this, all frequencies travel 334 m/s (not sure) but can be viewed as going faster from different reference frames.

michael879. That's sort of what I've been trying to get at. All of the 'evidence' that the speed of light is constant seems to be from experiements that confirm that all frequencies of light reach us from distant events at the same time ?

Surely, as I think you suggest above, this isn't evidence of anything of the sort ?
 
  • #32
michael879 said:
wish I had checked on this earlier, I got a lot of comments..

first, aether, I just omitted the word inertial its what I meant, you didnt answer my question u just pointed out a mistake in it. I know what a postulate is but people don't just go around making up postulates out of nothing and use them in new theories. There must have been a significant amount of evidence that the speed of light is constant for einstein to create all of special relativity around it.

Then you must have not read ANY of Einstein's biography, or any history of physics. The formulation of SR was due to several issues of 19th Century physics, the biggest of which is the non-covariant nature of Maxwell Equations at that time under galilean transformation. This is a big deal since Newton's Laws maintain their covariance. And since light is a product of the Maxwell equations, it was natural that it has to be addressed. That was the impetus of SR!

M1keh, light could logically be able to travel at speed greater than light while all frequencies still initially went the same speed. I think sound waves are like this, all frequencies travel 334 m/s (not sure) but can be viewed as going faster from different reference frames.

zapper, the frequencies don't separate because they travel different speeds in a vacuum, just because they travel different speeds in a medium which is pretty irrelevant since the photons are still going the constant speed of c (just being absorbed and reabsorbed by molecules).

Er.. the frequencies don't separate because they travel different speeds in vacuum? Come again?

All you need to do is measure this and get it over with. We have measurements of c in vacuum ranging from low freq. radio waves all the way to gamma range. You demanded experimental evidence for the validity of SR. Now it is my turn to demand from you experimental evidence for what you are claiming. It is fair, is it not?

It is also ironic that you are using "photons are still going the constant speed of c" in your explanation of optical transport through matter, since you are arguing that they DON'T!

Zz.
 
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  • #33
ZapperZ said:
Then you must have not read ANY of Einstein's biography, or any history of physics. The formulation of SR was due to several issues of 19th Century physics, the biggest of which is the non-covariant nature of Maxwell Equations at that time under galilean transformation. This is a big deal since Newton's Laws maintain their covariance. And since light is a product of the Maxwell equations, it was natural that it has to be addressed. That was the impetus of SR!



Er.. the frequencies don't separate because they travel different speeds in vacuum? Come again?

All you need to do is measure this and get it over with. We have measurements of c in vacuum ranging from low freq. radio waves all the way to gamma range. You demanded experimental evidence for the validity of SR. Now it is my turn to demand from you experimental evidence for what you are claiming. It is fair, is it not?

It is also ironic that you are using "photons are still going the constant speed of c" in your explanation of optical transport through matter, since you are arguing that they DON'T!

Zz.

Zz. Although my id was mentioned this wasn't originally posted by me.

That said, can the fact that, all frequencies of light from a single source turn up at the same speed, be used as evidence of a constant speed of light ?
 
  • #34
Aether said:
If LET uses the Lorentz transforms, then how is it an ether theory?

You'll need to figure that one for yourself, I am not interested in restarting a multi-hundred post thread with you.

Then please give one example of an additional ad-hoc assumption required to make GGT empirically equivalent to SR.

You got that in the CMWill paper that was recommended to you hundreds of posts ago. I am not interested in running another multi-hundred post thread with you on the same exact subject. It was already discussed ad nauseaum with you in more than one thread. Several other posters tried (and apparently failed) to explain the same thing to you. Try reading CM Will on your own.
 
  • #35
ZapperZ said:
... the biggest of which is the non-covariant nature of Maxwell Equations at that time under galilean transformation. This is a big deal since Newton's Laws maintain their covariance. ...
Zz.

A bit more interesting. Can you recommend a good URL that gives the details ... preferably in 'an idiots guide ...' approach ?


Thanks.
 
  • #36
clj4 said:
You'll need to figure that one for yourself, I am not interested in restarting a multi-hundred post thread with you.
Your claim is absurd, and your reply is not responsive to my question. Unless someone else here agrees with you, then your claim is dismissed by unanimous consent.
You got that in the CMWill paper that was recommended to you hundreds of posts ago. I am not interested in running another multi-hundred post thread with you on the same exact subject. It was already discussed ad nauseaum with you in more than one thread.
Again, your reply is not responsive to my question. Unless someone else here agrees with you, then your claim is dismissed by unanimous consent.
Several other posters tried (and apparently failed) to explain the same thing to you. Try reading CM Will on your own.
Does anyone else remember it this way?
 
  • #37
c costant

2. http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/20...t/pnu484-1.htm . This is the most recent and accurate determination that the speed of light is independent of the speed of the source.

I don't know why are needed some experiment, I think is natural that the light speed is indipendent by the speed of the source.

Like a rain that fall down to the clouds.
If the cloud go down to sky with a certain speed, the drops fall at its speed, or not?
 
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  • #38
alpaolo said:
2. http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/20...t/pnu484-1.htm . This is the most recent and accurate determination that the speed of light is independent of the speed of the source.

I don't know why are needed some experiment, I think is natural that the light speed is indipendent by the speed of the source.

Like a rain that fall down to the clouds.
If the cloud go down to sky with a certain speed, the drops fall at its speed, or not?

OK, now this is strange. Usually people can't understand why the speed of something isn't dependent on the speed of the source.

The speed of "raindrops" is governed by many things, including drag forces. This puts a limit on how fast it can move through air, regardless of the initial speed of the clouds. If you remove the air, then it DOES matter. So if you do galilean transformation, as in speed of a bullet shot on a moving train, you'll see that a person on the ground will see a different speed of the bullet than the person on the train who fired it. You go from one frame to another via galilean transformation (under v<<c).
 
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  • #39
c costant

Another strange question.

If the source S of light run with speed vs is on train with a speed Vt, the observer watch the speed as like a sum vs+vt, but the generated run with speed c.
Is not because the source of light lies on the train and the force drag the source, but the light is indipendent, is, in fact "suspended"?

The source of light don't contrast the gravity (lies on the floor) but the light have a force that contrast the gravity?
 
  • #40
alpaolo said:
Another strange question.

If the source S of light run with speed vs is on train with a speed Vt, the observer watch the speed as like a sum vs+vt, but the generated run with speed c.
Is not because the source of light lies on the train and the force drag the source, but the light is indipendent, is, in fact "suspended"?

No, it is because gallilean transformation doesn't work when v~c. At that range, only Lorentz transformation works for all of mechanics, not just light.

Zz.
 
  • #41
c costant

The speeed sum formula: (u+v)/[1+(u*v/c2)] for me appears a little trick to include a c in the formula.

About me there is a possibility to include gravity in the gallilean transformation.
Every object that don't lies on the "train" ( and stay suspended ) don't suffers the drag force.Then the ext observer can watch only the single speed...

I know I'm crazy, but this idea is a loop on my mind.
 
  • #42
alpaolo said:
The speeed sum formula: (u+v)/[1+(u*v/c2)] for me appears a little trick to include a c in the formula.

About me there is a possibility to include gravity in the gallilean transformation.
Every object that don't lies on the "train" ( and stay suspended ) don't suffers the drag force.Then the ext observer can watch only the single speed...

I know I'm crazy, but this idea is a loop on my mind.

Before you get carried away, pay attention to these:

1. The Lorentz transformation has been formulated BEFORE Einstein's SR. Einstein made a physical connection to it, and electrodynamics.

2. Re-read the PF guidelines regarding personal and speculative theories. We strictly enforce it.

Zz.
 
  • #43
c costant

Thanks zz,

but where is a place where submit an idea?

I know it's impossible follows all idea. I'm not a genius but only watching the nature behaviour, is possible to get a a new idea.

Many people don't understand the costant speed of light because there is no way top accelerate it, but this not means that the speed of light is a limit...


thanks again zz
 
  • #44
ZapperZ said:
Er.. the frequencies don't separate because they travel different speeds in vacuum? Come again?

All you need to do is measure this and get it over with. We have measurements of c in vacuum ranging from low freq. radio waves all the way to gamma range. You demanded experimental evidence for the validity of SR. Now it is my turn to demand from you experimental evidence for what you are claiming. It is fair, is it not?

It is also ironic that you are using "photons are still going the constant speed of c" in your explanation of optical transport through matter, since you are arguing that they DON'T!

Zz.

Im not arguing that the speed of light isn't constant, I am asking for experimental evidence since the only proof I have is that a bunch of teachers have told me its constant. In my comment I was just telling you would a textbook would say: all frequencies of light travel at c in a vacuum. In media however they "travel" at different speeds. Its misleading to say that since in reality they are still traveling at c, they just are absorbed and reabsorbed by atoms in the medium that slow down different frequencies different amounts.
 
  • #45
michael879 said:
Im not arguing that the speed of light isn't constant, I am asking for experimental evidence since the only proof I have is that a bunch of teachers have told me its constant. In my comment I was just telling you would a textbook would say: all frequencies of light travel at c in a vacuum. In media however they "travel" at different speeds. Its misleading to say that since in reality they are still traveling at c, they just are absorbed and reabsorbed by atoms in the medium that slow down different frequencies different amounts.

But in all practical sense, they DO travel at different speeds in a medium. This is because the "light pulse" that is measured is always the group velocity. You don't measure the phase velocity, nor do you have a direct probe of the "photon velocity". The same is true for speed of light in a vacuum. Do you think you measured the "photon velocity" here? Thus, the comparison is perfectly valid.

You were already given the experimental evidence that is consistent with SR. Yet, you continued to counter it with some made-up scenario of some "drag", which is neither formulated carefully, nor backed by any experimental evidence. Why aren't you as skeptical towards this scenario as you are with your textbooks and your teachers? To me, you're already nitpicking things that you don't like, while you turn on your blinders towards your explanation that is riddled with holes.

I have given you tons of experimental evidence. There are more. You haven't shown even one. Unless there's something you haven't told me, I'm sure you'll understand that I no longer wish to continue with this "discussion", because what I asked for, you refuse to provide.

Zz.
 
  • #46
ZapperZ said:
But in all practical sense, they DO travel at different speeds in a medium. This is because the "light pulse" that is measured is always the group velocity. You don't measure the phase velocity, nor do you have a direct probe of the "photon velocity". The same is true for speed of light in a vacuum. Do you think you measured the "photon velocity" here? Thus, the comparison is perfectly valid.
maybe its valid but its kinda irrelevent.
ZapperZ said:
You were already given the experimental evidence that is consistent with SR. Yet, you continued to counter it with some made-up scenario of some "drag", which is neither formulated carefully, nor backed by any experimental evidence. Why aren't you as skeptical towards this scenario as you are with your textbooks and your teachers? To me, you're already nitpicking things that you don't like, while you turn on your blinders towards your explanation that is riddled with holes.

I have given you tons of experimental evidence. There are more. You haven't shown even one. Unless there's something you haven't told me, I'm sure you'll understand that I no longer wish to continue with this "discussion", because what I asked for, you refuse to provide.

Zz.
huh? when have I countered SR? I think SR is right I am just trying to understand its postulates and get some clear evidence of it. what drag scenario are you talking about? I havnt mentioned anything like drag and I havnt given my own theory to counter SR... I think your confusing me with alpaolo..
 
  • #47
michael879 said:
maybe its valid but its kinda irrelevent.

Why? You ARE measuring the group velocity in BOTH, because at best, you measure "pulses". I'd say it is valid AND relevant.

huh? when have I countered SR? I think SR is right I am just trying to understand its postulates and get some clear evidence of it. what drag scenario are you talking about? I havnt mentioned anything like drag and I havnt given my own theory to counter SR... I think your confusing me with alpaolo..

You're right. I apologize. However, you DID counter SR. Did you forget that you said the following:

M1keh, light could logically be able to travel at speed greater than light while all frequencies still initially went the same speed. I think sound waves are like this, all frequencies travel 334 m/s (not sure) but can be viewed as going faster from different reference frames.

zapper, the frequencies don't separate because they travel different speeds in a vacuum, just because they travel different speeds in a medium which is pretty irrelevant since the photons are still going the constant speed of c (just being absorbed and reabsorbed by molecules).

You said that even AFTER being pointed out the experimental evidence that contradict what you just said. So not only are you contradicting the postulate of SR, you also made claims that did not match any experimental evidence.

Zz.
 
  • #48
I said logically, which means if light were like sound different frequencies would still travel at c but they could appear to travel at speeds greater than c from different reference frames. I didnt say light IS like sound I said logically it could be. I was just saying that the fact that all frequencies travel at the same speed doesn't prove that c is constant in all inertial frames.

also, all frequencies do travel at c in a vacuum, its only when they are in some medium that they separate.

The fact that the speed of light can vary in different media is irrelevant to this thread because the photons in that case never travel slower than c. The overall light "wave" has an average speed slower than c.
 
  • #49
michael879 said:
I said logically, which means if light were like sound different frequencies would still travel at c but they could appear to travel at speeds greater than c from different reference frames. I didnt say light IS like sound I said logically it could be. I was just saying that the fact that all frequencies travel at the same speed doesn't prove that c is constant in all inertial frames.

Logically, IT CAN'T! You cannot DERIVE such a thing, so there's no logic to this. It is why this is physics and not mathematics. At some point, you use physical values that are not derived, but measured! So what you claim to be "logical", isn't!

also, all frequencies do travel at c in a vacuum, its only when they are in some medium that they separate.

So I actually imagined you saying what I quoted in BOLD?

The fact that the speed of light can vary in different media is irrelevant to this thread because the photons in that case never travel slower than c. The overall light "wave" has an average speed slower than c.

You don't have to teach me that, especially if you have read our FAQ in the General Physics section. However, and I'm saying this again for the umpteeth time, you do NOT measure the speed of a photon. You detect the GROUP VELOCITY, be it in vacuum or in a medium. That is what we measure in optical transport measurement, it is what is measured in the paper that was cited, and it is what is being measured in that apparent superliminal NEC experiment a few years ago.

And where do you think are the sources of the gamma rays that were measured in the cited paper? In the Earth's reference frame? How about you give the paper a careful reading FIRST and figure out if they somehow managed to sneak into PRL with simply just that one result, or if they actually had a few more things to say?

Zz.
 
  • #50
ZapperZ said:
So I actually imagined you saying what I quoted in BOLD?
sorry I just reread what I wrote. I think my lack of commas made it mean something different from what I meant.
the frequencies don't separate because they travel different speeds in a vacuum
I meant that the reason the frequencies separate in a medium isn't because they travel different speeds in a vaccuum. We both saying the same thing arent we?
ZapperZ said:
You don't have to teach me that, especially if you have read our FAQ in the General Physics section. However, and I'm saying this again for the umpteeth time, you do NOT measure the speed of a photon. You detect the GROUP VELOCITY, be it in vacuum or in a medium. That is what we measure in optical transport measurement, it is what is measured in the paper that was cited, and it is what is being measured in that apparent superliminal NEC experiment a few years ago.

And where do you think are the sources of the gamma rays that were measured in the cited paper? In the Earth's reference frame? How about you give the paper a careful reading FIRST and figure out if they somehow managed to sneak into PRL with simply just that one result, or if they actually had a few more things to say?

Zz.
what paper are you talking about? I havnt cited any paper... and I get that the group velocity isn't c in a medium but it really has nothing to do with my original question. All I asked was for experimental evidence that the speed of light was constant. Since relativity is based around that fact I am just curious why einstein thought that. Why are you being so aggressive towards me? and why do you keep acting like I made most of these posts? I've only posted 3 or 4 times and I havnt said half of the things youve accused me of.
 
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