Unusual escape velocity derivation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around alternative derivations of escape velocity, specifically exploring methods beyond the conventional energy conservation approach. Participants consider the use of momentum, force balance, and angular momentum in their analyses.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose deriving escape velocity using momentum and force balance considerations, or angular momentum, rather than relying solely on energy conservation.
  • One participant suggests that one could approach the problem from first principles by determining a trajectory and evaluating the required initial velocity for a chosen distance and launch angle.
  • Another participant mentions the possibility of using time reversal symmetry to analyze the final velocity and impact angle for a drop from a large distance, taking limits as the distance increases.
  • There is a viewpoint that any derivation of escape velocity may ultimately resemble a restatement of energy conservation, as integrating forces in small steps parallels the process of deriving energy concepts.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the feasibility of deriving escape velocity without invoking energy conservation, suggesting that such methods may not provide fundamentally new insights.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the viability of alternative derivations of escape velocity. Multiple competing views remain regarding the effectiveness and originality of methods that do not rely on energy considerations.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations include the potential dependence on specific definitions of escape velocity and the unresolved nature of the proposed derivations, which may not fully escape the framework of energy conservation.

Dilema
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Is it possible to derive escape velocity say using momentum and force balance considerations? or using angular momentum consideration?
Namely, any other approach then energy consideration that utilizes gravitation potential energy and kinetic energy?
 
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Dilema said:
Summary: Does anyone knows other derivation then the usual energy conservation to the escape velocity: v=(2MG/r)^0.5?

Is it possible to derive escape velocity say using momentum and force balance considerations? or using angular momentum consideration?
Namely, any other approach then energy consideration that utilizes gravitation potential energy and kinetic energy?
One could, of course, attack the problem from first principles using forces and masses, determining a trajectory and evaluating the required initial velocity to reach a chosen distance using a particular launch angle. One could then take the limit as the target distance is allowed to increase without bound.

Similarly, one could exploit time reversal symmetry and use the same approach to determine the final velocity and impact angle for a drop from a large finite distance with a particular initial angular momentum and then take the limit as the initial distance is allowed to increase without bound.

But it is so much easier to use the fact the the gravitational field is conservative. It then follows immediately that the trajectory is irrelevant and that only the starting and ending points matter.
 
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Thanks
jbriggs444
If you found a document that derived it please let me know.
 
jbriggs444 said:
One could, of course, attack the problem from first principles using forces and masses, determining a trajectory and evaluating the required initial velocity to reach a chosen distance using a particular launch angle. One could then take the limit as the target distance is allowed to increase without bound.

You could. But adding up the forces in tiny little steps looks a lot like integrating the forces in infinitesimal steps, and that's just energy.

I suspect that any derivation falls into this category - it's an obfuscated or at least decorated restatement of energy conservation.
 
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Vanadium 50 said:
But adding up the forces in tiny little steps looks a lot like integrating the forces in infinitesimal steps, and that's just energy.
Right. It's the process used in calculus-based introductory physics textbooks to derive the expression for the electric potential energy. When one uses conservation of energy to find the escape velocity one is making use of the results derived from integrating the force.
 

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