Using analog computer to solve 2nd-order diff eq

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the challenges of using an analog computer to solve the second-order differential equation x'' + 2x' + x = f(t), specifically when f(t) is a sine wave. Participants explore circuit design issues, debugging strategies, and the implications of feedback in analog circuits.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes their circuit setup and the unexpected output of a delta function instead of the desired sine/cosine wave.
  • Another participant suggests that the common-mode voltage of the input may be incorrect and recommends DC biasing the input source.
  • Concerns are raised about the circuit design, including the shorting of inputs and the use of inverting op-amps, which may lead to polarity issues.
  • There are suggestions to simulate circuit blocks independently to identify problems before integration.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the circuit representing the intended differential equation and notes an oscillatory output with increasing amplitude, questioning the role of the time constant in the integrator.
  • Another participant mentions that the circuit may have positive feedback due to the configuration of inverting circuits, which could lead to instability.
  • Some participants discuss the importance of understanding DC bias points and the potential for biasing issues to cause functionality problems in analog circuits.
  • There is a debate about whether the observed behavior is indeed an error or a characteristic of the differential equation being solved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether the circuit design contains errors or if the behavior observed is a natural outcome of the differential equation. There is no consensus on the correct interpretation of the circuit's behavior or the necessary modifications.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in their understanding due to varying levels of experience with analog circuits and the complexity of the problem. There are references to external resources for further clarification on analog computing principles.

  • #31
dilloncyh said:
One of the problem now is that for practical reason, I use C=0.1uF and R=100k for the integrators, so Vout=100*integrate(Vin),
i'd have made R=10meg to keep it real time...

i remember doing time scaling but not quite exactly how.

have you tried on your simulator placing 100::1 attenuators at inputs of both integrators?
see section 9 at pdf page 35 of 51 here:
https://courses.engr.illinois.edu/ece486/labs/lab1/analog_computer_manual.pdf

 
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  • #32
jim hardy said:
i'd have made R=10meg to keep it real time...

i remember doing time scaling but not quite exactly how.

have you tried on your simulator placing 100::1 attenuators at inputs of both integrators?
see section 9 at pdf page 35 of 51 here:
https://courses.engr.illinois.edu/ece486/labs/lab1/analog_computer_manual.pdf

I tried other values of resistance and capacitance for the integrator, but 100k ohm and 0.1uF seems to work best. If I use any other larger resistor (~1M ohm), the output signal is just to small to be seen on the oscilloscope). Since y'=-100*integrate(y''), and y=-100*integrate(y')=10000*integrate(y''), my first thought is that the diff eq becomes y''+100by'+10000cy=-f(t), but it doesn't seem to be true when I check the results.
For the lecture notes u mention, I can't really understand what it means and what it has to do with 'time' scaling, as now it is the output (y-axis of a plot) of each integrator that is changed.

PS: for the circuit diagram, just ignore Ud (Vsignal and Vin are shorted together). It predicts the actual Vout of my circuit in the lab quite well, and based on output of Vout and Vout2 using different values of R2 and R3, I believe that it actually works. Only problem is I don't know what equation is it actually solving and I need to work backward to get the coefficients b and c (which I have no idea how to do).
 

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  • #33
Problem solved already. I guess my project's done. thanks for all the replies and help
 
  • #34
dilloncyh said:
Problem solved already.
Just now tuned in. What'd you do ?
 
  • #35
let 1/CR = k
the equation should be y''+k*b*y'+k^2*c*y=-k^2*f(t)
at least the ltspice and the actual circuit give the solution to this equation
 
  • #36
Great !So it's still solving real time?
 
  • #37
jim hardy said:
Great !So it's still solving real time?
I'm still not sure what 'real time' means, but if u throw any diff eq of the form y''+by'+cy = f(t) to me, I can solve it using my circuit provided that the values of coefficients are not too extreme
 

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