Using Curl to determine existence of Potential Function

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between the curl of a vector field and the existence of a potential function, particularly in the context of vector calculus in three-dimensional space. Participants explore the implications of obtaining a zero or non-zero curl and the conditions under which these results hold, including considerations of the domain of the vector field.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether a zero curl guarantees the absence of a potential function and whether a non-zero curl guarantees the existence of one.
  • Another participant clarifies that if a smooth vector field is defined on a simply connected region in ##\mathbb{R}^{3}## and has a curl of zero, then there exists a smooth scalar field that serves as a potential function.
  • It is noted that if the vector field is defined on a non-simply connected region, the existence of a potential function is not guaranteed even if the curl is zero.
  • Some participants assert that a zero curl does not universally guarantee the existence of a potential function, emphasizing the importance of the domain's characteristics, such as being convex or star-shaped.
  • There is agreement that a non-zero curl indicates that there cannot be a potential function.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the implications of a zero curl for the existence of a potential function, with some asserting guarantees under specific conditions while others highlight exceptions based on the domain of the vector field. There is general agreement that a non-zero curl implies the absence of a potential function.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the role of the domain in determining the relationship between curl and potential functions, referencing concepts such as the Poincaré lemma and De Rham cohomology, which are relevant to the conditions under which these relationships hold.

Ineedahero
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How does it work, exactly?

Assume I have a vector field function and I take the curl of it.

If I get a curl of zero, then does that guarantee that there is no potential function?
And if I get a curl of non-zero, does that guarantee that there is a potential function?

I googled this, but it wasn't clear.

Thanks.
 
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You are mixing things up. As far as calculus on ##\mathbb{R}^{3}## is concerned, if ##X## is a smooth vector field defined on a simply connected region in ##\mathbb{R}^{3}## and ##\nabla \times X = 0 ## then there exists a smooth scalar field ##\varphi ## such that ##X= \nabla\varphi ## on that simply connected region. However if the vector field is defined on a non-simply connected region then this need not hold true.

If the curl of the vector field is non-zero, how can the vector field be the gradient of a scalar field?

More generally, we speak of exact and closed differential forms. The result on ##\mathbb{R}^{3}## can be generalized to smooth manifolds using the rather beautiful Poincare Lemma: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_and_exact_differential_forms#Poincar.C3.A9_lemma

EDIT: Note that we make use of the above in electromagnetism all the time because the electromagnetic field ##F## satisfies ##dF = 0 \Rightarrow F = dA## (at least locally) and we call ##A## the electromagnetic 4-potential.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the quick response!
So, I take it that the following statements are true (assuming the vector field is smooth and connected in R3 and so on):

If the curl is zero, then that GUARANTEES that there IS a potential function
If the curl is non-zero, then that GUARANTEES that there is NO potential function
 
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Ineedahero said:
If the curl is zero, then that GUARANTEES that there IS a potential function

No. But this is a very tricky subject. A lot depends on the domain of the vector field ##X##. For example, if ##X## is defined on entire ##\mathbb{R}^3##, then it's true: if ##curl(X)=0##, then there is a potential function. But if ##X## is defined on ##\mathbb{R}^3\setminus \{0\}## (for example), then there are counterexamples.

The Poincare lemma states that if the domain of definition of ##X## is convex (or more generally: star shaped), then it is true that if the curl is zero, then there is a potential function. But on more general domains, this might fail.

The study of this question is done in De Rham cohomology. This is a formalism set up to study the situations when ##curl(X)=0## implies the existence of a potential function.

If the curl is non-zero, then that GUARANTEES that there is NO potential function

This is true.
 

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