Using General Relativity to analyze the twin paradox

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The discussion centers on the twin paradox and its analysis through general relativity (GR), particularly Einstein's argument involving "pseudo gravitational fields." Critics argue that this explanation violates causality, as the gravitational field's effects would need to propagate faster than light. However, it is asserted that the "field" is a coordinate effect rather than a physical one, meaning no actual influence travels between the twins, thus preserving causality. The debate also touches on the validity of frame-dependent quantities in relativity, arguing that just because something is not "real" in one frame does not invalidate its use in explanations. Ultimately, the criticism does not undermine Einstein's GR analysis of the twin paradox, as the core principles of relativity remain intact.
  • #31
Jimster41 said:
flat Minkowski space (if that's what space is).

It's not. The Minkowski geometry is a spacetime geometry (a flat one), not a space geometry. More generally, "space" does not have a unique meaning, because any spacetime (Minkowski or otherwise) can be split up into "space" and "time" in multiple different ways.

So the correct way to formulate concepts like "separate things" is not to look at whether they're separate in space, but whether they're separate in spacetime. For example, a given object is modeled as a worldline, or more generally a "world tube" in spacetime--a region of spacetime occupied by the object. Different objects occupy different regions of spacetime. This definition is independent of whether the objects are "accelerated" or not; it's purely in terms of spacetime geometry and which portions of it are occupied by different objects.
 
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  • #32
PeterDonis said:
More precisely, he claimed that a non-inertial frame is just as valid for doing physics as an inertial frame, provided you are willing to allow a "gravitational field" to exist in the non-inertial frame that does not exist in the inertial frame. Note that this applies to flat spacetime, i.e., "in SR"; you don't need to have curved spacetime to use non-inertial frames.
Others including me and you clarified how a gravitational field cannot explain the observed phenomena.
And one should not confound SR's use of non-inertial frames with Einstein's claims about a physical explanation by means of induced gravitational fields.
Whether this is equivalent to saying "acceleration is relative" is, to me, an unimportant matter of terminology, just like the question of what it means to say that "velocity is relative".
If you are not interested to try to understand Einstein's early interpretation of relativity, which happened to be the topic of his 1918 paper; then it's totally useless to discuss that paper here. :bugeye:
when you fire your rocket and feel the acceleration induced, [...]
I agree of course. In contrast, Einstein: or when you fire your rocket and feel the induced gravitational field!
Einstein did choose an unfortunate comparison here, because a magnetic field is not a coordinate artifact the way connection coefficients are. For some electromagnetic fields, it is possible to find a frame in which the magnetic field is zero; we call these "electrostatic" fields, and they correspond to a very special physical situation. [..]
Not unfortunate, but exactly what he meant. In SR such fields are totally valid; in no way are they fictitious. Fictitious and relative are not to be confounded.
As for the terms "real" and "physical", I personally would be just as happy to restrict those terms to direct observables: for example, I would be just as happy to say that length contraction and time dilation are "fictitious" in the same sense that you are saying the "pseudo gravitational field" in Einstein's analysis is "fictitious".
That would be a serious mistake. As in a parallel thread on Bell's Spaceship was explained, length contraction and time dilation can be treated as perfectly real in the chosen inertial frame: all SR's laws of nature work perfectly.
Then we could focus on frame-invariant observables in place of those "fictitious" things, such as the observed Doppler shift in place of "time dilation". But if we are going to allow some of those frame-dependent things to be "real and physical", then I don't see any way to pick and choose and say that time dilation, for example, is "real" but the gravitational field in Einstein's example is not.
Unwittingly you actually did so, as I pointed out, right at the start. A real gravitational field must obey GR. In GR, cause and effect is assumed and gravitational fields propagate at local speed c. Moreover, light from distant stars also propagates at local speed c.
Why the restriction to inertial motion? Are you saying that, if I am moving non-inertially, "time dilation" somehow becomes unreal, but it's real if I'm moving inertially?
Certainly not. If one mistakenly treats an accelerating frame as an inertial frame, this creates nonsense and paradoxes as discussed in the parallel thread on Bell's Spaceship.
 
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  • #33
harrylin said:
One should not confound SR's use of non-inertial frames with Einstein's claims about a physical explanation by means of induced gravitational fields

I don't agree. The "induced gravitational field" that Einstein was talking about is EXACTLY SR in noninertial coordinates. There is no difference.
 
  • #34
stevendaryl said:
I don't agree. The "induced gravitational field" that Einstein was talking about is EXACTLY SR in noninertial coordinates. There is no difference.
In that case Einstein would have been debating about nothing - apart of complexity, nobody has or had a problem with non-inertial coordinates! It's even commonly used in classical mechanics. Mapping to the geoid by means of Newton's mechanics is right at the start of many textbooks.
 
  • #35
stevendaryl said:
I don't agree. The "induced gravitational field" that Einstein was talking about is EXACTLY SR in noninertial coordinates. There is no difference.

The SR equations of motion for a test mass are simplest when you use inertial cartesian coordinates and parametrize using proper time. Then it's just:

m \frac{d U^\mu}{d\tau} = F^\mu

where F is the 4-force. So it looks just like Newton's F=ma.

If you switch to using curvilinear, noninertial coordinates and use some other parameter s besides proper time, you have, instead:

m (\frac{d \tilde{U}^\mu}{ds} + \Gamma^\mu_{\nu \lambda} \tilde{U}^\nu \tilde{U}^\lambda + \frac{d log(f)}{ds} \tilde{U}^\mu) = \tilde{F}^\mu

where \tilde{U} and \tilde{F} is rescaled versions of U and F, and where f = \frac{ds}{d\tau}

The "induced gravitational field" due to acceleration just amounts to moving terms from the left-hand side to the right-hand side, and writing:

m \frac{d \tilde{U}^\mu}{d\tau} = F_{eff}^\mu = \tilde{F}^\mu + F_{grav}^\mu

where

F_{grav}^\mu = - m(\Gamma^\mu_{\nu \lambda} \tilde{U}^\nu \tilde{U}^\lambda + \frac{d log(f)}{ds} \tilde{U}^\mu)

Whether you put the terms F_{grav} on the left side, and call them connection coefficients, or put them on the right side, and call them gravitational forces, is just a matter of taste, but it doesn't change the physics.

Is F_{grav} a real force, or not? Well, it's not real, in that it's not due to any source. People talk about it being "induced by acceleration", but that's not true, really. They are induced by the choice of the noninertial coordinate system. That choice isn't forced on you by the fact that you're in an accelerating rocket. A person inside a rocket can use inertial coordinates just as well as someone floating inertially. Anybody can use any coordinates they like; you don't have to use coordinates in which you, personally, are at rest.

On the other hand, F_{grav} is real, in the sense that it is measurable, to the same extent that coordinate acceleration is.
 
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  • #36
harrylin said:
In that case Einstein would have been debating about nothing - apart of complexity, nobody has or had a problem with non-inertial coordinates! It's even commonly used in classical mechanics. Mapping to the geoid by means of Newton's mechanics is right at the start of many textbooks.

Well, I don't see any content to the "induced gravitational field due to acceleration" above and beyond what was already known in Newtonian physics in noninertial coordinates. I really do think that Einstein's GR resolution to the twin paradox had no content above and beyond SR in noninertial coordinates. Now, I think that the discussion was useful, in that it shows how the same situation can be viewed as velocity-dependent time dilation in one set of coordinates, and "gravitational" time dilation in another set of coordinates. But that doesn't actually provide any new insight about the twin paradox. Instead, it provides insight about GRAVITY -- real gravity due to masses. To me, the usefulness of equating "fictitious forces" with "gravitational field" is not that it provides any new insight about SR, but that it provides insight about the nature of gravitational fields. Using GR to solve an SR problem is ridiculous, in my opinion. But using SR to solve (approximately) a problem involving clocks at different altitudes on Earth is a big deal. The problem can't be solved without the equivalence principle, unless you go all the way to full GR.
 
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  • #37
harrylin said:
A real gravitational field must obey GR. In GR, cause and effect is assumed and gravitational fields propagate at local speed c.
You are starting with a valid premise but making an incorrect conclusion here.

In GR whatever you mean by the term "gravitational field" clearly must obey GR, however what that term refers to has changed over time. Einstein used the term "gravitational field" to refer to the Christoffel symbols. According to GR the Christoffel symbols are not required to "propagate at local speed c". Thus the statement that the "gravitational fields propagate at local speed c" is false using Einstein's terminology.

More modern usage would be to either not use the term "gravitational field" at all or to use it to refer to the Riemann curvature tensor. The statement that the "gravitational fields propagate at local speed c" would be correct using that terminology. But that is not the argument that Einstein is making nor the terminology that he was using.
 
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  • #38
harrylin said:
Others including me and you clarified how a gravitational field cannot explain the observed phenomena.

Huh? Where did I say that?

harrylin said:
one should not confound SR's use of non-inertial frames with Einstein's claims about a physical explanation by means of induced gravitational fields.

Since by "gravitational field" Einstein meant "Christoffel symbols", and since those are only nonzero in flat spacetime in a non-inertial frame, I don't see how this is "confounding" at all; it's just matching up the math with Einstein's ordinary language explanation.

harrylin said:
In contrast, Einstein: or when you fire your rocket and feel the induced gravitational field!

No, Einstein did not say you "feel" a gravitational field. He said you feel the acceleration required to hold yourself at rest in the gravitational field. The gravitational field is introduced in the non-inertial frame in which you are at rest, in order to explain how you can be at rest while at the same time feeling acceleration. But the field itself is not "felt", any more than the field of the Earth is "felt"--the field of the Earth is introduced to explain how you can be sitting at rest on the Earth while at the same time feeling acceleration. The fact that a gravitational field, by itself, is not felt, is the whole point of Einstein's "happiest thought", that a person falling freely will not feel his own weight.

harrylin said:
A real gravitational field must obey GR.

Minkowski spacetime does obey GR: the stress-energy tensor is zero and the Einstein tensor is zero. This is true whether you use inertial or non-inertial coordinates, since tensor equations are covariant.

harrylin said:
In GR, cause and effect is assumed and gravitational fields propagate at local speed c.

No, changes in spacetime curvature propagate at local speed c. But in flat spacetime, the curvature is always zero, so there are no changes to propagate.

harrylin said:
light from distant stars also propagates at local speed c.

Yes, it does. So what?
 
  • #39
harrylin said:
I agree of course. In contrast, Einstein: or when you fire your rocket and feel the induced gravitational field!

This is perhaps a subtle distinction, but you don't "feel" any induced gravitational field on board an accelerating rocket, and you don't "feel" a gravitational field when standing on the Earth. What you feel is the force of the floor pushing up against the bottom of your feet. Gravity doesn't explain this force, it explains why, in spite of the force, you stay in the same location (relative to Earth-fixed coordinates).
 
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  • #40
stevendaryl said:
The SR equations of motion for a test mass are simplest when you use inertial cartesian coordinates and parametrize using proper time. Then it's just:

m \frac{d U^\mu}{d\tau} = F^\mu

where F is the 4-force. So it looks just like Newton's F=ma.

If you switch to using curvilinear, noninertial coordinates and use some other parameter s besides proper time, you have, instead:

m (\frac{d \tilde{U}^\mu}{ds} + \Gamma^\mu_{\nu \lambda} \tilde{U}^\nu \tilde{U}^\lambda + \frac{d log(f)}{ds} \tilde{U}^\mu) = \tilde{F}^\mu

where \tilde{U} and \tilde{F} is rescaled versions of U and F, and where f = \frac{ds}{d\tau}

The "induced gravitational field" due to acceleration just amounts to moving terms from the left-hand side to the right-hand side, and writing:

m \frac{d \tilde{U}^\mu}{d\tau} = F_{eff}^\mu = \tilde{F}^\mu + F_{grav}^\mu

where

F_{grav}^\mu = - m(\Gamma^\mu_{\nu \lambda} \tilde{U}^\nu \tilde{U}^\lambda + \frac{d log(f)}{ds} \tilde{U}^\mu)

Whether you put the terms F_{grav} on the left side, and call them connection coefficients, or put them on the right side, and call them gravitational forces, is just a matter of taste, but it doesn't change the physics.

Is F_{grav} a real force, or not? Well, it's not real, in that it's not due to any source. People talk about it being "induced by acceleration", but that's not true, really. They are induced by the choice of the noninertial coordinate system. That choice isn't forced on you by the fact that you're in an accelerating rocket. A person inside a rocket can use inertial coordinates just as well as someone floating inertially. Anybody can use any coordinates they like; you don't have to use coordinates in which you, personally, are at rest.

On the other hand, F_{grav} is real, in the sense that it is measurable, to the same extent that coordinate acceleration is.

This was helpful. I really appreciate this kind of relatively gentle use of formal symbolism in context, to illuminate the ambiguity of perception being discussed. I'd love to have that more often, though I can see why it's a bit painful.

When you say gravity is not real because it's not due to any "source", There is a temperamental rub or me, (if I am following) in terms of what metaphors or adjectives adhere...for me the bizarre elasticity of inertial perspective in space time, counts as a "source" of a pretty interesting sort. It's not like when you change coordinate frames the physics of acceleration changes. They can be described differently, but when you accelerate, (or are near mass) spacetime elasticity and its distortion is causing things that are recognizably "real" to happen (maybe even "most real"). It seemed for a moment you were suggesting space-time distortion was "not real".

Just watched Interstellar last night. Lots of chuckles and cringes at the physics references, but some of the visualizations were lovely. One sequence about GR, did a good job of giving me the willies.
 
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  • #41
stevendaryl said:
I really do think that Einstein's GR resolution to the twin paradox had no content above and beyond SR in noninertial coordinates.

I think Einstein's use of GR to explain the twin "paradox" has an additional importance that has not yet been mentioned here: Einstein's GR solution gives the same result, for the rocket-twin's "point-of-view" about how the home twin's current age varies during the trip, as is given by the co-moving-inertial-frames solution in SR. Einstein's GR solution does not agree with the "Radar Solution" of Dolby & Gull. And Einstein did not appear to regard the rocket-twin's conclusions about the aging of the home twin to be some kind of arbitrary choice of simultaneity "convention".
 
  • #42
PhoebeLasa said:
I think Einstein's use of GR to explain the twin "paradox" has an additional importance that has not yet been mentioned here: Einstein's GR solution gives the same result, for the rocket-twin's "point-of-view" about how the home twin's current age varies during the trip, as is given by the co-moving-inertial-frames solution in SR. Einstein's GR solution does not agree with the "Radar Solution" of Dolby & Gull. And Einstein did not appear to regard the rocket-twin's conclusions about the aging of the home twin to be some kind of arbitrary choice of simultaneity "convention".

Yeah, now I'm confused again. If acceleration is only a figment due to non-inertial choice of reference frame why does the "travelling" twin age more slowly. If gravitational force due to acceleration is "fictitious" and only due to choice of reference frame, Just because he had a rocket firing at his brother doesn't mean he was the one accelerating.

I had been picturing that he was, then you convinced me that one could just as easily imagine that his brother could feel like the one zooming away, if the right frame was chosen, but now I'm confused as to how the physical effects of acceleration were assigned to one twin and not the other (regardless of rockets). I realize now I had actually been imagining a physical substance, a sort of geometry-ether made of little tets of space-time rest-frames, both twins are composed of these real objects with identity, relation to each other, and some sense of sequential "history". The twin with the rockets was distorting his using energy - applied to those objects, so his clock slowed down.
 
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  • #43
PhoebeLasa said:
Einstein's GR solution gives the same result, for the rocket-twin's "point-of-view" about how the home twin's current age varies during the trip, as is given by the co-moving-inertial-frames solution in SR.

Yes, but obtaining that result required choosing a particular non-inertial coordinate chart. See below.

PhoebeLasa said:
Einstein did not appear to regard the rocket-twin's conclusions about the aging of the home twin to be some kind of arbitrary choice of simultaneity "convention".

Not explicitly, but he did implicitly when he specified the "gravitational field" that appears when the rocket twin chooses to use (non-inertial) coordinates in which he is always at rest (or, equivalently, when he specified the home twin's aging as a function of the rocket twin's time). When he did that, he was implicitly assuming a particular choice of non-inertial coordinates, which in turn implies a particular choice of simultaneity convention. Different choices of non-inertial coordinates (such as Dolby & Gull's), with different simultaneity conventions, would also give different "gravitational fields" (i.e., different connection coefficients), and different behavior of the home twin's aging as a function of the rocket twin's time. The fact that Einstein didn't spell all those implicit assumptions out does not mean he wasn't making them.
 
  • #44
Jimster41 said:
If acceleration was only a perspective change, why does the "travelling" twin age more slowly.

Acceleration in the sense of proper acceleration--acceleration that you feel--is not a "perspective change". It's a direct observable.

The "perspective change" is the choice of coordinate chart; but coordinates in themselves have no physical meaning. All the physics is in the direct observables. And "relative rate of aging" is not a direct observable. There is no direct observable the traveling twin can use to tell him "how fast the home twin is aging at this moment". The home twin's "rate of aging" depends on which coordinates the traveling twin chooses to use.

The direct observable related to "aging" is the fact that, when the two twins meet up again, the traveling twin's clock shows less elapsed time. But that is a property of the two twins' respective paths through spacetime as a whole; it is not a property of any particular point on the twins' paths.

It's just as if you and I both started out from New York City with cars whose odometers read zero, and met up again in Los Angeles to find that your odometer read more miles than mine, because you took a longer route than I did. The difference in odometers is a direct observable, but it is meaningless to ask at what point on our respective paths the difference in odometers "happened". Nor is it meaningful to ask, during either of our journeys, what the other's odometer reading is "at the same point" in his journey. There is no unique mapping between points on the two paths; there is only the comparison of the total path lengths.

Similarly, the two twins follow different paths through spacetime, and those paths have different lengths. But there is no unique mapping between points on the two paths, so there's no way to tell "which twin is older" in any invariant sense at any particular point. You can only compare the total path lengths.
 
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  • #45
Ah that helps.

So this is the problem with intrinsic curvature... It can't be measured from some exterior perspective. It can only be evaluated by comparing end results of closed paths. Is it incorrect to say that it is a property of the points on their path (what else could it be caused by)... but that property is not observable - because for us it is intrinsic?
 
  • #46
Jimster41 said:
So this is the problem with intrinsic curvature

With path curvature, not spacetime curvature. We are considering a scenario in flat spacetime; spacetime curvature is zero. But the traveling twin's path is curved, whereas the home twin's path is straight. (In the idealized case where the traveling twin's turnaround is instantaneous, his path is composed of two straight legs plus a "corner", and all the path curvature is at the corner. In a more realistic case, the corner would be "rounded off" to be smooth because the twin's acceleration is limited to some finite amount--a "corner" would mean infinite acceleration.)
 
  • #47
Jimster41 said:
Is it incorrect to say that it is a property of the points on their path (what else could it be caused by)

Path curvature requires the path to be a curve in a higher-dimensional manifold; there is no such thing as completely "intrinsic" path curvature. (This is in contrast to spacetime curvature; for a manifold of two or more dimensions, intrinsic curvature is meaningful, and when we talk about spacetime curvature, we are talking about intrinsic curvature.)

Jimster41 said:
but that property is not observable

Sure it is. Path curvature is just proper acceleration, which is directly observable.
 
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  • #48
PhoebeLasa said:
Einstein's GR solution gives the same result, for the rocket-twin's "point-of-view" about how the home twin's current age varies during the trip, as is given by the co-moving-inertial-frames solution in SR. Einstein's GR solution does not agree with the "Radar Solution" of Dolby & Gull.
Do you have a reference for any of this?

As far as I am aware none of it is correct and you are again simply pushing an odd personal agenda that you have been repeatedly told is wrong.
 
  • #49
DaleSpam said:
As far as I am aware none of it is correct

I was interpreting this as meaning simply that the Dolby & Gull simultaneity convention is different from the "comoving inertial frame" simultaneity convention, which is true, and that the simultaneity convention assumed by "Einstein's GR solution" is the same as the latter one, which is true as far as I know (at least to the extent that Einstein specified a coordinate chart at all).

This does not imply that I agree with the poster's interpretation of what all that means, of course.
 
  • #50
PeterDonis said:
the simultaneity convention assumed by "Einstein's GR solution" is the same as the latter one
I don't even think that that much is clear. In Einstein's "pop-sci" work there is not enough math provided to identify what simultaneity convention he is using, and in his non "pop-sci" work it is clear that he allows for all coordinate choices.
 
  • #51
DaleSpam said:
I don't even think that that much is clear.

Hm, you're right; looking at the Einstein article I linked to in the OP, he doesn't commit himself to any particular simultaneity convention. In the Usenet Physics FAQ article, the "comoving inertial frame" convention is assumed, but of course Einstein didn't write that. :wink:
 
  • #52
PeterDonis said:
[...] looking at the Einstein article I linked to in the OP, he doesn't commit himself to any particular simultaneity convention.

Einstein (in the posted reference) says that ALL of the extra aging of the home twin (according to rocket twin) happens while the rocket is firing. That's the co-moving-inertial-frames solution, NOT the Dolby & Gull solution.
 
  • #53
PhoebeLasa said:
Einstein (in the posted reference) says that ALL of the extra aging of the home twin (according to rocket twin) happens while the rocket is firing. That's the co-moving-inertial-frames solution, NOT the Dolby & Gull solution.

Okay. Yes, you're right--if you have different simultaneity conventions, then the accounting for when the extra aging takes place is different.
 
  • #54
PhoebeLasa said:
Einstein (in the posted reference) says that ALL of the extra aging of the home twin (according to rocket twin) happens while the rocket is firing. That's the co-moving-inertial-frames solution, NOT the Dolby & Gull solution.
Not enough information is given to show that it is the co-moving-inertial-frames solution. You are simply assuming that based on your own desire for it to be so. Do you have some reference that proves that all of the extra aging being during the rocket firing implies the co-moving-inertial-frames and excludes all other possibilities?

More problematic, however, is your continued assertion that it is the only valid convention, which is certainly false and certainly not supported by Einstein's writings, either this "pop-sci" reference or his technical papers.
 
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  • #55
PhoebeLasa said:
Einstein (in the posted reference) says that ALL of the extra aging of the home twin (according to rocket twin) happens while the rocket is firing.

Are you sure you're talking about the Einstein article and not the Usenet Physics FAQ article? The latter is the one that explicitly talks about "where the aging occurs". Einstein's article does not, as far as I can see.
 
  • #56
PeterDonis said:
Are you sure you're talking about the Einstein article and not the Usenet Physics FAQ article? The latter is the one that explicitly talks about "where the aging occurs". Einstein's article does not, as far as I can see.

You're reading too fast. Slow down and smell the roses.
 
  • #57
PhoebeLasa's answer is unhelpful, but I guess he's referring to:
Einstein said:
During the partial processes 2 and 4 the clock U1, going at a velocity v, runs indeed at a slower pace than the resting clock U2. However, this is more than compensated by a faster pace of U1 during partial process 3.
The "partial processes 2 and 4" are the unaccelerated out-and-back phases; process 3 is the turnaround phase.

Einstein says that during partial process 3 a homogeneous gravity field appears, which precisely balances the thrust of the traveling twin's rocket and accelerates the stay-at-home twin. What he does not do, as far as I can see, is specify a simultaneity convention. So while he says that the aging happens while the gravity field is present, he doesn't specify when the gravity field is present for the stay-at-home twin in terms of the stay-at-home twin's clocks.

Is there a simultaneity convention implicit in the homogeneity of the gravity field? Or will any convention do?
 
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  • #58
Ibix said:
What he does not do, as far as I can see, is specify a simultaneity convention...he doesn't specify when the gravity field is present for the stay-at-home twin in terms of the stay-at-home twin's clocks.

Exactly.
 
  • #59
DaleSpam said:
[..] Einstein used the term "gravitational field" to refer to the Christoffel symbols. [..].
Please provide a reference, thanks!
 
  • #60
harrylin said:
Please provide a reference, thanks!

In the dialog that is linked to in the very first post, Einstein doesn't explicitly use the word "Christoffel symbol", but he does say, from the point of view of the "traveling" twin:

A gravitational field appears, that is directed towards the negative x-axis. Clock U1 is accelerated in free fall, until it has reached velocity v.

That is clearly using "gravitational field" to mean "acceleration due to gravity". The equations of motion for a test mass in SR in general, non-inertial, curvilinear coordinates attributes the (coordinate) acceleration due to gravity to the Christoffel symbols:

\frac{d^2 x^j}{dt^2} = - \Gamma^j_{kl} \frac{dx^k}{dt} \frac{dx^l}{dt} - \frac{d log(\gamma)}{dt} \frac{dx^j}{dt}

(The second term is due to using the non-affine parameter t rather than proper time \tau; \gamma is the conversion factor: \frac{dt}{d\tau} = \gamma)
 

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