Using theoretical science within my book (graphic novel) ADVISE

AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers on the integration of nanotechnology in a science fiction narrative, particularly focusing on a protagonist who regains sight through "nano-cellular therapy" after being blinded. Participants clarify that nanotechnology is not a singular theory but encompasses various engineering methods at the nanoscale. The feasibility of enhancing human vision to perceive ultraviolet and infrared light is debated, with references to natural examples and the limitations of human biology. The conversation also touches on the potential implications of rapidly processing visual information and the challenges of modifying the human nervous system without adverse effects. Overall, the thread explores the balance between scientific realism and creative storytelling in developing futuristic concepts.
cruggero
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Here's a line from one of my characters "Take too long to aim. Stay close to the holster…and don’t lock yer’ arm. A to B, fastest way between two points is a straight line. Simple physics." I'm confused on whether that's basic physics or geometry. It's in reference to a quick draw like that of a gunfighter.
*Note i'll update on other topics therein the literature some time in the future.
 
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Is there a speck of possibility that within the theory of Nanotechnology; Nano-cells made to reconstruct dead human cell tissue, say for the eyes in this case, can alter human light perception to see ultraV/infraR light? Additionally, more to the sci-fiction aspect, could it go beyond "reach out to" the electromagnetic spectrum's infinitude.
 
cruggero said:
Is there a speck of possibility that within the theory of Nanotechnology; Nano-cells made to reconstruct dead human cell tissue, say for the eyes in this case, can alter human light perception to see ultraV/infraR light? Additionally, more to the sci-fiction aspect, could it go beyond "reach out to" the electromagnetic spectrum's infinitude.

Welcome to PF crugero. There is no such thing as "the theory of nanotechnology". Nanotechnology refers to any technology that includes some form of nanoengineering (specifically engineered on the nanoscale 1-100nm). By "Nano-cells" I presume you are talking about the science fiction ideas revolving around microscopic cell repair robots. This is outside the current research fields in medical nanotechnology, the focus is not on robots at all.

With regards to Uv/IR sight there are already examples in nature of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_vision#Ultraviolet". It is not possible to see all of the EM spectrum, I'm not an expert in this field but it is my understanding that if you wanted to see really short or long wavelengths you are going to need really short or long sensors.

As for your OP I think it's perfectly fine to say "simple physics"
 
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Actually I'm more adherent to a biological/mechanical hybrid. I felt the "robot" aspect was a little misplaced. By theory I meant the actually application of this technology. Basically what my story's premise is built on is a protagonist whom after a series of traumatic personal events disconnects from his current life. As a firefighter he's blinded. The man he saves offers him the chance to regain his sight through "Nano-cellular therapy" some three hundred years in the future, during which he's placed cryogenic stasis, until the tech is ready. As happenstance the tech is adapted towards a more predatory aim. Making the eye work in a framework of nanoseconds vs. milliseconds; basically cutting the neural transference between the eyes and effective brain lobes. So if you can imagine every sensory aspect of the eye working with the brain's motor and visual cortices to act, more or less without delay, you've got a highly reactive response time.
 
cruggero said:
Actually I'm more adherent to a biological/mechanical hybrid. I felt the "robot" aspect was a little misplaced. By theory I meant the actually application of this technology.

Again this is science fiction over real science. Though personally I would agree that if "cell-repair machines" were ever made they would be a product of synthetic biology rather than ridiculously infeasible mechanics.

Basically what my story's premise is built on is a protagonist whom after a series of traumatic personal events disconnects from his current life. As a firefighter he's blinded. The man he saves offers him the chance to regain his sight through "Nano-cellular therapy" some three hundred years in the future, during which he's placed cryogenic stasis, until the tech is ready. As happenstance the tech is adapted towards a more predatory aim. Making the eye work in a framework of nanoseconds vs. milliseconds; basically cutting the neural transference between the eyes and effective brain lobes. So if you can imagine every sensory aspect of the eye working with the brain's motor and visual cortices to act, more or less without delay, you've got a highly reactive response time.

A far-more-likely and less far-future treatment for the blind could be either a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BCI_JensNaumann.png" .

I'm not sure what you mean by less delay, do you mean to speed up the transmission of sensory input down the optic nerve to the occipital lobe? I doubt this would change much, transmission is on the order of milliseconds and still needs to be processed by the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_cortex" before being acted upon. There would be no noticeable increase in a persons reflexes.
 
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cruggero said:
Actually I'm more adherent to a biological/mechanical hybrid. I felt the "robot" aspect was a little misplaced. By theory I meant the actually application of this technology. Basically what my story's premise is built on is a protagonist whom after a series of traumatic personal events disconnects from his current life. As a firefighter he's blinded. The man he saves offers him the chance to regain his sight through "Nano-cellular therapy" some three hundred years in the future, during which he's placed cryogenic stasis, until the tech is ready. As happenstance the tech is adapted towards a more predatory aim. Making the eye work in a framework of nanoseconds vs. milliseconds; basically cutting the neural transference between the eyes and effective brain lobes. So if you can imagine every sensory aspect of the eye working with the brain's motor and visual cortices to act, more or less without delay, you've got a highly reactive response time.

As Ryan pointed out it would realistically take a bit more than new eyes. You would have to speed up transmission from eye to brain, the processing time of the brain, and then transmission from brain to what ever part of the body in order to really speed up reaction time. Or at least it would require the first two steps, speeding up the processing time would be imperative otherwise you would just be overloading the visual cortex with too much information. At best the extra information would just be lost.

Theoretically, and I mean scifi theoretically, the nanobots could create synthetic replacements/enhancements to the existing eyes and visual cortex in order to make them operate more quickly. At that point, unless these nanites are in limited supply, you may as well have them just invade his whole nervous system and speed the whole thing up though that would perhaps have far more effect than you really intend.
 
TheStatutoryApe said:
Theoretically, and I mean scifi theoretically, the nanobots could create synthetic replacements/enhancements to the existing eyes and visual cortex in order to make them operate more quickly. At that point, unless these nanites are in limited supply, you may as well have them just invade his whole nervous system and speed the whole thing up though that would perhaps have far more effect than you really intend.

And then you would have to boost muscle speed, strength and efficiency (increasing the first two will result in much higher waste heat and energy necessity). The body is, for lack of a better word, finely tuned with thousands of metabolic processes interacting with each other in specific ways. Changing one could have drastic effects on the other.
 
ryan_m_b said:
And then you would have to boost muscle speed, strength and efficiency (increasing the first two will result in much higher waste heat and energy necessity). The body is, for lack of a better word, finely tuned with thousands of metabolic processes interacting with each other in specific ways. Changing one could have drastic effects on the other.

Certainly. I did not really want to go into a hypothetical about the possible dangers of increasing the electrical impulses through the nervous system as I couldn't really say with any confidence. Also, since its a graphic novel I doubt he really intends to go into great detail on the scientific accuracy. With comics there is usually a general idea that "Ah well, it works out somehow".

Have you watched No Ordinary Family? Oh my, the inaccuracies are pretty bad. The episode where going really fast throws someone forward in time, and only temporarily, was one of my favourites.
 
You guys aren't making his book any easier to write. :smile:

Here's an idea for you cruggero. If I'm remembering correctly, cockroaches have tiny hairs on their legs which send signals directly to the legs when they are stimulated by air movements, which is why they can be so hard to kill. Why force the hero's eyes to be in the same place as nature put them? He could wear a nanotechnology fabric that sees and sends signals directly to the muscles (and/or the nanobots in the muscles). You could let the brain control the action by pre-approving a given scenario and allowing the nanotechnology to work independantly after that.
 
  • #10
Actually, I greatly do wish to stay as close to a scientific realism as possible. Perhaps this will help. I'm a psych major so I know I little about the biological aspects of the brain. We're looking at a complete overhaul of the primary visual cortices, including motor cortices. Wholly the V1-V5 areas. Covering the parietal lobes and temporal lobes up through the dorsal and ventral streams. Additionally the eyes and optical nerves. The eye's rod to cone quantity has been doubled and leveled. I took concept from a hawks vision and added two foveae to the human eye, like a tri-formation. I believe this would increases acute and peripheral vision. Not to mention a heightened ambidexterity and hand eye coordination.
 
  • #11
As far as the side effects on the bad end of things. I considered it and made that a large part of the story. In so many words the people responsible for making this technology have been refining it for years on multiple human subjects. Always resulting in dementia and/or schizophrenia. In order to make it useful they have always, with exception to the protagonist, removed the brains ability for individual identity to keep them from going insane. Now as far as the supply goes the nano-cells hit a boundary condition at which they are simply programmed to maintain cell structure. They can't affect what they haven't been specialized to in so many words.
 
  • #12
While I like that idea about the fabric. I'm attempting to establish a gritty western Eastwood-isk type feel for this book. Blended with sci-fiction. I've even gone as far to write in self destruct timers for bullets fired in space so they don't travel a 100 billion miles and hit who knows what. Sociologically speaking, the setting is a post war era where resources on Earth are drying up causing heaps of infighting between people and their governments. While the U.N. resource committee contracts a company (whose become extravagantly wealthy and's bought nearly all top tier scientific/engineering properties) to a Extraterrestrial Resource Utilization Program upon which they're charged with terraformation of and resource cultivation out in the universe "starting with Sol". This all of which happens while the protagonist is unconscious.
 
  • #13
Continuing, they make everything. Well, after a series of events all the technology left behind by the company has no one to attend to it. It decays along with structured society. I'm i firm believer in that when people are left with no option they will find a way to fend for themselves. That said they "a few" create a contractual law enforcement process. Much like bounty hunters but not just like. My protagonist becomes one of these.
 
  • #14
Tell me what would be necessary, within reason, to make a man so visually acute that they see in a framework of nanoseconds and react accordingly fast. Like the ultimate gunslinger if it were an old west type like Wild bill Hickcock or Doc Holiday, Wyatt Earp ect. Based on what I've given.
 
  • #15
Then I'll get into to the hallucination bit of it. Any Schopenhauer or Kant fan's will like this portion of the story.
 
  • #16
Last thing, to Mr. Borg. I like that cosmetic idea, so maybe you'll have something to add to this. The technology turns the protagonists eyes a pitch black, from the iris to sclera. Obviously many people would be frightened or tipped off by this. So he covers them "eventually" with sunglasses.
 
  • #17
If you want the eyes where they normally belong, then the comments from ryan and SA are more relevant to your story. Expecially if you're planning on the mental wiring issues that you've described. The idea that I threw out there was strictly designed to improve speed to the maximum possible.
 
  • #18
"Tell me what would be necessary, within reason, to make a man so visually acute that they see in a framework of nanoseconds and react accordingly fast. Like the ultimate gunslinger if it were an old west type like Wild bill Hickcock or Doc Holiday, Wyatt Earp ect. Based on what I've given."

The main thing would be to make the neural conduction velocity be light speed rather than sound-speed (3e8m/s rather than ~30m/s), in both the CNS and peripheral nerves. The synaptic delays would be the next thing to handle. I'm not sure how well it would work to have "legacy" parts of the brain operating much slower. It might not work at all. Even with near-instantaneous reactions, movement is bound by physics. On the plus side, humans use their muscles much more gently than other animals, including hominids, so there is some headroom for additional force to make fast movements. Additional efferent muscle innervation might help, with blocks on excessive afferent pain signals that usually prevent high muscle forces in humans (this sort of temporary block is likely responsible for hysterical strength). A predominance of fast-twitch muscle and anaerobic metabolism with the other modifications could allow up to 10x faster movements for periods of a few seconds per minute. To make precision movements would require dialing down the efferent nerve signals, though.

Human eyes are optically lousy. With good optics they can get down to 20/8, for more, the size of the rods and cones would have to be reduced - but with better processing and slight movements of the eye, perhaps 20/4 or better could be possible. With massively more sensors, making the rod/cone density equal to the fovea across the whole field of vision, rather than just 0.5 degree, the amount of visual data would be staggering, several thousand times what an ordinary human sees. It would theoretically be possible for each photoreceptor to respond to light from say 200nm (shorter waves would be difficult- not much is transparent at those wavelengths) to 1600 or 3200nm, (resolution falls off with longer waves, need bigger photoreceptors), so that's 3 or 4 octaves of light. (3 octaves from 300 to 2400nm would be a fairly conservative range) The receptors could also theoretically tell the wavelength and polarization of every photon, allowing the person to see the specrograph of everything in his field of vision, and thus its material and often its temperature, at least for very hot things. (He'd likely see the tail of the blackbody distribution at surprisingly low temperatures, given his spectral resolution, but the peak of the distribution would only come into view at several hundred degrees F). A slight increase in the size of the eye (up to about 1/3 bigger) wouldn't look too weird and would increase spatial resolution. Being able to distort the lenses more, and more precisely, being able to distort the shape of the eye itself, and perhaps having additional internal flexible, movable optics inside the eye would allow a zoom lens effect up to perhaps 2 or 3x. Having no iris and an exceptionally wide aperture would give a very thin focal region, and thus potentially a very precise perception of distance. Being able to refocus rapidly and doing so constantly and unconsciously would give an extraordinary 3-D situational awareness. When "going into overdrive" and effectively seeing thousands of "frames" per second, in ordinary indoor light, things will seem to go dim and grainy for him, as they do for us in very low light at ordinary perceptual speeds. On the other hand, a good deal of color vision should persist in any light.

So to sum up, with the eye completely redesigned, perhaps 20/1 vision in the near UV to 20/8 vision in the mid-IR, covering the whole field of view (about 80000 times the area of the foveal solid angle), with the ability to see thousands of separate, independent colors and polarization, a 2 or 3x zoom, absolute distance perception accurate to about a millimeter at 1 meter to a few centimeters at 100m, on the order of 1e7times more information per "frame" and thus a trade-off in using processing power - even with a 1e7 faster visual cortex, ramping up to a faster "frame rate" will degrade the fineness of the processing and the amount of data that can be handled (thus relative tunnel vision). Also at high speeds, there just usually isn't enough light for smooth, bright vision, so he will have dimmer, lower-contrast, grainier vision at high speeds.

You may find http://www.nanomedicine.com/NMI.htm" by Robert Freitas a useful reference. An additional volume is available at the same site.

Also see the free PDF http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=12896" from the National Academies Press / Defense Intelligence Agency
 
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  • #19
EWH said:
You may find http://www.nanomedicine.com/NMI.htm" by Robert Freitas a useful reference. An additional volume is available at the same site.

As someone in the field of nanomedicine I would advise against Freitas as anything but science fiction. Whilst some of his designs are complex and well thought out they are missing out on huge areas of thought (toxicity and immunology for one) and don't represent the field at all.

cruggero it is going to be quite hard for you to keep this within the realms of science. You are talking about re-engineering the brain, that's an insanely complex task. It is conceivable that a signal could be transmitted from the eye to the muscle in nanoseconds using fibre optics. However the signal hasn't been processed in any way and getting a muscle to move so quickly and respond within nanoseconds is going to be impossible. Chemical reactions in the arm wouldn't be able to occur in that time frame. You would have to radically redesign the cellular and biochemical biology of the arm to make it react much faster, then you have problems of waste heat.

There may be simpler ways of doing this. There have been some http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will" that have shown that actions are initiated slightly before conscious thought. You could copy this idea somewhat and have the characters laced with fibre optics (with electrode interfaces to nerves). These fibres can network with things like optical chips in the eyes, ears etc. These chips could work to process sensory input far faster than the brain, if some intelligent agent in the chips determines the need to fire it could take control of the body. In this manner the character could just be walking along and suddenly find themselves diving through a shop window whilst drawing a gun and shooting two assailants that their biological brain hadn't even recognised yet. To keep the mental illness theme you could have it that these chips start making the character paranoid that he is not controlling his own actions.

Whilst highly steeped in science fiction ideas like this are going to be easier to plausibly write over redesigning biology. Evolution hasn't created systems that can be easily modified, the technology to replace gross anatomy is fantastical and would lead to far greater changes in society.
 
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  • #20
sry check reply
 
  • #21
cruggero said:
sry check reply

Pardon me?
 
  • #22
This is all very helpful thank you very much. I actually on my 2nd draft placed the "speed of light premise" into the dialogue. While I'd like to stay scientific as possible I understand there are bounds I must overlook. For the less scientifically apt I want this to be seamless. As to the conscious vs. unconscious thought, that's written in as well. I'm walking the line between feasible and extraordinary. The light fields presented a great opportunity for a "story within the story" as far as hallucinations he encounters. Like viewing things in of themselves blended with what as turned out being a spiritual journey of sorts. Note that I've indeed dulled the color he sees his surroundings by, to a amber hue.
 
  • #23
So what I've done thus far is in the relevant areas I need to be in?
 
  • #24
What would a connection between a Nano-brain, like a synthetic intelligence, and a human entity be called? I know its not telepathy. In dialogue I refer to it as shared networking. That seems clear, but may have a loaded jargon to it.
 
  • #25
cruggero said:
This is all very helpful thank you very much. I actually on my 2nd draft placed the "speed of light premise" into the dialogue. While I'd like to stay scientific as possible I understand there are bounds I must overlook. For the less scientifically apt I want this to be seamless. As to the conscious vs. unconscious thought, that's written in as well. I'm walking the line between feasible and extraordinary. The light fields presented a great opportunity for a "story within the story" as far as hallucinations he encounters. Like viewing things in of themselves blended with what as turned out being a spiritual journey of sorts. Note that I've indeed dulled the color he sees his surroundings by, to a amber hue.

I'm not even sure what you mean here. What premise? What is a "light field"? What hallucination? Why does the colour matter?
cruggero said:
So what I've done thus far is in the relevant areas I need to be in?

You are writing fiction with science sounding words. What you are writing can be plausible (i.e. doesn't break any known laws) but it is still far from what we currently know.
cruggero said:
What would a connection between a Nano-brain, like a synthetic intelligence, and a human entity be called? I know its not telepathy. In dialogue I refer to it as shared networking. That seems clear, but may have a loaded jargon to it.

"Nano-brain" is a nonsensical word. Either it means a brain that is on the order of nanometres (there are fundamental limits to computing there) or it means a brain that includes nanoengineering which would include, not just real brains, but computer chips nowadays.

You're stepping into awkward territory when you try to suggest that consciousness can reside outside the brain. The brain doesn't network, there is no science behind what you are suggesting. It's fiction with some science sounding words. You started by saying you wanted to stay close to science but now what you are saying is very out there in terms of fiction.
 
  • #26
I understand, let try explaining in another fashion. The "nano-brain" I'd mentioned is more of a A.I. that's stationed on board a spacecraft . It serves as a kind of a codex, it operates systems, navigation, communications, and other manner of tasks. If such a device where to have a "radio like" connection; kind of like a "wireless transmitter" what that process be called if it were done between it and my protagonist?
 
  • #27
"Also at high speeds, there just usually isn't enough light for smooth, bright vision, so he will have dimmer, lower-contrast, grainier vision at high speeds."

The amber hued perspective which he sees in, was placed within the story for a reason similar to this. E.g. dim & low contrast (a dulled amber hue).
 
  • #28
Please understand that yes, this is fiction, yes its based "somewhat" on science. As a writer I must suspend the reader's disbelieve. I'd really prefer doing that with actual science as best I can. This is my first and very ambitious project which I'd like to be as scientifically accurate as possible. Well knowing that it will be impossible to strictly maintain accuracy at all times.
 
  • #29
cruggero said:
I understand, let try explaining in another fashion. The "nano-brain" I'd mentioned is more of a A.I. that's stationed on board a spacecraft . It serves as a kind of a codex, it operates systems, navigation, communications, and other manner of tasks. If such a device where to have a "radio like" connection; kind of like a "wireless transmitter" what that process be called if it were done between it and my protagonist?

It's called radio or whatever word you want to come up with. If you a positing some sort of technology that allows the thoughts of the AI and protagonist to be transmitted then call it what you like. DARPA have actually looked at making http://gajitz.com/war-of-the-words-us-army-developing-telepathy-helmet/" .

cruggero said:
"Also at high speeds, there just usually isn't enough light for smooth, bright vision, so he will have dimmer, lower-contrast, grainier vision at high speeds."

The amber hued perspective which he sees in, was placed within the story for a reason similar to this. E.g. dim & low contrast (a dulled amber hue).

Why is it dim?

cruggero said:
Please understand that yes, this is fiction, yes its based "somewhat" on science. As a writer I must suspend the reader's disbelieve. I'd really prefer doing that with actual science as best I can. This is my first and very ambitious project which I'd like to be as scientifically accurate as possible. Well knowing that it will be impossible to strictly maintain accuracy at all times.

If I could give you some advice, I think it was Arthur Clarke or Asimov that said "don't worry about what technology you use in fiction, just make sure that how it affects society is logical".

I.e rather than working backwards thinking "I want a space gun fight, what technologies would I need" you should be thinking "what would a society with these technologies look like?". Often you find that the original idea is contradicted by the effect the technology would have on society.
 
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  • #30
"Why is it dim?"
For the same reason a photo taken at 1/4000 of a second is dimmer than one at 1/30s when the aperture and ambient light are constant. Assuming more gain is applied to reduce the difference in brightness, (the equivalent of using a faster film speed) then you get more noise (graininess). With less light and more noise, the ratio between the number of photons captured by bright and dark pixels is less, so there is a lower contrast ratio. The signal is attenuated and the noise is increased at high shutter speeds or any other cause of low light at the sensor. High speed cameras make up for this by either using very bright light or by having very large photosites, but the latter option reduces resolution if the sensor size is limited.

**
"If such a device where to have a "radio like" connection; kind of like a "wireless transmitter" what that process be called if it were done between it and my protagonist?"
The bit on the protagonist's end would usually be called in SF a "direct neural interface" or a "skull jack". The networked communication is seldom given a name, but I think I have seen "artificial telepathy". I think there are some little-explored possibilities there - usually it is presented as like a video conference, or at most like telepresence but it could be much more intimate than that between 2 mostly inorganic intelligences, or an AI and a partial upload as your protagonist effectively is. Questions of identity, the origins of thoughts and perceptions could be explored.
 
  • #31
I have thought of that. In my setting societies split by a war that isolates the Sol system from the more lush parts of the expanded universe. Sol happens to be the main hub for humanity still. But all the technology that had advanced society has been left to decay due to the war's high casualty rate. Many of the people responsible for maintaining this technology have died. So I' m left with a rustic terraformed look where people use modernized versions of contemporary equipment. Overall a very cluttered dirty feel. I guess dull is better than dim to explain that color, its actually described as "dulled amber hue". I was inspired by a DARPA technology featured in "Metal Gear Solid" where Nano-tech is designed like an internal ear piece; similar to my protagonists "link" between him and the on board A.I.
 
  • #32
I like that "direct neural interface". Is that similar to what i'd phased in the panel descriptions as a "cerebral connection"?
 
  • #33
cruggero said:
I like that "direct neural interface". Is that similar to what i'd phased in the panel descriptions as a "cerebral connection"?

The closest thing to this in real life is research on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain%E2%80%93computer_interface" , combined with the ability to manipulate the feelings of an individual (the same way drugs can) this could provide VR training that the user is "drugged" to think is real.

If your technology can allow motor control then the idea of an AI taking over the body in necessary moments could be allowed. Though I'm a little confused as to how you plan to fit such highly advanced technology into a setting where technological civilisation has collapsed.
 
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  • #34
ryan_m_b said:
Though I'm a little confused as to how you plan to fit such highly advanced technology into a setting where technological civilisation has collapsed.

I have recently read a few Jerry Pournelle novels and he did this in many of them. The general idea was that there was a massive civil war spanning multiple planets and solar systems which left many planets so devastated that they reverted to rather primitive society. Only some planets retained much in the way of advanced tech and the "winning" side still had plenty of tech but primarily of a military nature. Pournelle never really got into particularly advanced technology in the books I read though other than FTL travel and vaguely described regenerative medicine.
 
  • #35
TheStatutoryApe said:
I have recently read a few Jerry Pournelle novels and he did this in many of them. The general idea was that there was a massive civil war spanning multiple planets and solar systems which left many planets so devastated that they reverted to rather primitive society. Only some planets retained much in the way of advanced tech and the "winning" side still had plenty of tech but primarily of a military nature. Pournelle never really got into particularly advanced technology in the books I read though other than FTL travel and vaguely described regenerative medicine.

Last year I read a http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/07/insufficient-data.html" that summarised my thoughts on this topic very well. As technology develops we require an increasingly specialised and complex labour pool. This lends itself to the situation that if the population falls bellow a certain level technology levels drop drastically. It's not just a case of dropping from the 1990s to the 1980s, your society will fail spectacularly because the infrastructure is built around a specific level of technology. If it fails you have no time to tear it down and rebuilt it into something similar (bearing in mind that getting to that level in the first place was a long incremental process requiring huge investment of capital and labour).

Long story short if you cut the population or loose the critical groups that have the expertise to keep the system going your society is going to bomb to less than a 3rd world country living amongst the ruins of decaying technology. There will be no primitives stumbling into a factory and getting it running again as that takes a large group of specialists with support from other industries made up of large groups of specialists. After the plagues (due to the collapse of healthcare infrastructure), famine (due to the collapse of agriculture infrastructure) and riots (due to economic and political collapse) eventually the small groups of individuals left may begin the slow climb back to technology. Potentially this climb will be quicker if they can find information left behind in the form of relics and books (providing little degradation or loss of reading) but slower due to the previous exhaustion of easily accessible resources.

Sorry for the rant but the amount of hand-waving seen in most post-civilisation-collapse fiction (TV/film/literature) is enough to cause a thousand hurricanes on the far side of the Earth. The reality is society is a dynamic thing and it takes most of our energy just to maintain it, loose that and you loose everything.
 
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  • #36
Yes, well my setting is during the early onsets of humanities expanse into the Sol system and outlaying systems. Humanity is still based "near" solely on Earth. Basically the population as grown far beyond a sustainable number on Earth and's drying up its resources. When governing authorities begin rationing food, water, and fuel there's a tipping point at which citizens have grown increasingly disgruntled. A riot here and demonstration there stresses the U.N. and every nation on Earth. During this time a "Company" who's devoted to aerospace technology supported by elite private investors has thrived and merged many of the prominent engineering and scientific market powers under its umbrella. They see opportunity in the chaos. They push for approval by the U.N. and the U.N. resource committee to subsidize and pass a "Extraterrestrial Resource Utilization Program" which is eventually passed. It commissions them to terraform moons and planets elsewhere in the Sol system and lift the burden of overpopulation from Earth and also gather resources to support humanity's continuing growth. Keep in mind this is during a time when the world economy has crashed, unemployment is rampant. Due the "Company's" success the gain renown and begin drawing masses of the unemployed into a colonization program. Over time they establish themselves as the worlds foremost economic power and branch out of the Sol system also comprising over a third of the world's job market. Meanwhile Earth erupts in a worldwide civil war between its peoples and their governments. Unannounced to Earth's nations, who are preoccupied by infighting, the "Company" builds a ship construction yard/research station orbiting Jupiter. Using the planets massive magnetic field and "orbital anchors" they hide the station on the planet's dark side where they build hundreds of gargantuan battleships armed with NNEMP weapons. They launch a massive take over on Earth and use the NNEMP bursts in a coordinated assault that blankets Earth's landmasses and sends Earth into a modern dark age. They then systemically wipe out every governmental and economic industry leaving them the sole central entity. However Earth's various national military forces and the citizens they'd been fighting unite to form a resistance. Aided by turncoats within the "Company's" forces they fight a long war that eventually pushes them out of the Sol system. In the aftermath untold hundreds of millions of people have died either due to war, starvation, dehydration, or sickness. Society's in shambles. A few people who aren't settled with a constant state of "survival of the fittest" impose order either by name of joint preservation, money and influence, or force. Now while the "Company" still exists outside of the Sol system, due to a treaty that disbars them from entry, they are allowed business trade with whomever can afford it. It so happens that they have a station where the Nanotechnology is perfected which, per chance, also houses my protagonist whom had left his prior life (in present time) due to the death of his son and dissolved marriage. He had once been a firefighter and responded to a call in which he was blinded but managed to save a scientist who was pioneering this Nano-cell tech. As repayment for a life debt and due his lost will to live in his current circumstance the protagonist accepts the scientists offer to be placed in cryonic stasis until a time in which he can gain his sight back, via the tech. The aforementioned timeline of war and chaos happens over a three-hundred year period in which the protagonist is unconscious for and awakens to the disheveled state of humanity at the end of all the war and famine.
 
  • #37
The advancement of technology to progress humanity where it had before the war is why it's "advanced" yet, due the war's killing of many whom had known how to maintain it, has decayed since then.
 
  • #38
ryan_m_b said:
Last year I read a http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/07/insufficient-data.html" that summarised my thoughts on this topic very well. As technology develops we require an increasingly specialised and complex labour pool. This lends itself to the situation that if the population falls bellow a certain level technology levels drop drastically. It's not just a case of dropping from the 1990s to the 1980s, your society will fail spectacularly because the infrastructure is built around a specific level of technology. If it fails you have no time to tear it down and rebuilt it into something similar (bearing in mind that getting to that level in the first place was a long incremental process requiring huge investment of capital and labour).

Long story short if you cut the population or loose the critical groups that have the expertise to keep the system going your society is going to bomb to less than a 3rd world country living amongst the ruins of decaying technology. There will be no primitives stumbling into a factory and getting it running again as that takes a large group of specialists with support from other industries made up of large groups of specialists. After the plagues (due to the collapse of healthcare infrastructure), famine (due to the collapse of agriculture infrastructure) and riots (due to economic and political collapse) eventually the small groups of individuals left may begin the slow climb back to technology. Potentially this climb will be quicker if they can find information left behind in the form of relics and books (providing little degradation or loss of reading) but slower due to the previous exhaustion of easily accessible resources.

Sorry for the rant but the amount of hand-waving seen in most post-civilisation-collapse fiction (TV/film/literature) is enough to cause a thousand hurricanes on the far side of the Earth. The reality is society is a dynamic thing and it takes most of our energy just to maintain it, loose that and you loose everything.
Pournelle's treatment is actually fairly good. Since he was describing society on the order of several colonies over several solar systems there are whole planets that were relatively untouched by the war. In his book with Niven "The Mote in God's Eye" they refer reverentially to the "Old Empire Technology" which was apparently more advanced than they had been capable of reproducing over the thousands of years since the war. In the first book of his I read "A Spaceship for the King" we start out on a planet that has only recently arrived at a social and technological level approximately paralleling Earth just before the industrial revolution and (until the New Empire showed up) the idea that there had ever been such things as spaceships had largely been considered myth and legend.



cruggero: Your story sounds interesting. I wish you luck with it.
 
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  • #39
the specialist are simply tools of the adapter. If I can't hop in my car and go buy dinner and a movie, I'll get off my lazy *** and pull my guns off the wall. Whatever's left of tech support will male good eating.
 
  • #40
Please help with this. Its been a very large problem. I've been researching VASIMR engines, magnetoplasmadynamic thrusters, Ion thusters, and so on. Additionally I've looked into hypothetical methods for space travel within a reasonable time frame. I want something that perhaps is being pioneered currently or some real world adaptation. I remember hearing about a impetus system that could get a shuttle from Earth to Mars in 23 days? What is this and how does it work? Is it even real?
 
  • #41
Ok, say you take the VASIMR. Add "thermal syncs" (due the heating problem) and "cyclical cyclotron resonance" (due narrow discharge problem) for a very wide energy distribution. Is that completely asinine concept?
 
  • #42
I would suggest asking specific questions about spacecraft propulsion in one of the physics subforums, you more likely to attract an expert on the subject. I'm no expert on VASIMR but it would be a good contender for what you want, though that depends on what you mean by "reasonable time frame" and the distances you want to travel. You've mentioned interstellar travel which is a hugely different kettle of fish. No VASIMR drive is going to get you out of the system, not to mention the complexity required for the ship.
 
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  • #43
I'm not strictly referencing the VASIMR as what is used to propel ships through space. It's cited as the precursor to what allows interstellar travel at a rapid interval. Say Mar's to Earth in 48 hours. I made it a kind of self sustaining and renewable impetus system. So say refueling was required, and the VASIMR was built with a hybrid drive core of sorts.
 
  • #44
With all the expertise levels of advice I've been seeing I was wondering if there any whom may know good publishers or publishing agents that I could forward my materials to?
 
  • #45
cruggero said:
Please help with this. Its been a very large problem. I've been researching VASIMR engines, magnetoplasmadynamic thrusters, Ion thusters, and so on. Additionally I've looked into hypothetical methods for space travel within a reasonable time frame. I want something that perhaps is being pioneered currently or some real world adaptation. I remember hearing about a impetus system that could get a shuttle from Earth to Mars in 23 days? What is this and how does it work? Is it even real?

Well, that would be about 0.01 gravity constant acceleration, I think, which is more than any currently proposed drive. The problem is that high-Isp (high exhaust v, low propellant fraction of total mass) means either low thrust or unbelievable power requirements. I saw a PDF recently for a colliding-beam aneutronic fusion drive that would put out IIRC 100MW, but delivered a few 10s of milliNewtons of thrust (and massed several tons, and even so is basically science fiction). There is nothing plausible that would allow interstellar travel in less than centuries. Using giant fixed solar or nuclear power plants and sending plasma beams (aka magbeam) to hit a mini-magnetospheric plasma sail on a ship could possibly do it. Antimatter drive would potentially have the self-contained energy-ensity, but it has some radiation and efficiency issues. Your "impetus system" might be a reactionless drive (violates Newton's laws). There are claims that a microwave in an asymmetrical resonating cavity produces such a reactionless thrust, but it is thought to be impossible by physicists. Even its proponents don't claim enough thrust to mass ratio to enable that fast an earth-mars transit. Then you get into really speculative stuff like warp drives (compress the space in front of the ship, expand it behind and voila!)

Very long (100s of 1000s of km at 1g+) launch tethers/accelerators could potentially do it.

Mostly SF authors use magic drives. You get 1 or 2 free passes in each book, even in "hard" SF.
***
"With all the expertise levels of advice I've been seeing I was wondering if there any whom may know good publishers or publishing agents that I could forward my materials to?"

As a new author they do not want to see your work until it is in publishable form. It is unlikely that much of your first 200,000 words of completed writing will be publishable. It's harsh, but there are only a few dozen people who make anything approaching a living at writing SF, and only a few hundred who make any money at all. Look at writer's workshops such as Clarion. Try to network at SF conventions if any are nearby. Reading other people's work, particularly new writers' is a thankless task - try not to pester authors or editors, and if they agree to read any of your work, be profuse with thanks and accepting of any comments they may make. Your ideas look interesting, well developed and potentially entertaining (1% down, 99% to go!). Keep at it.
 
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  • #46
I appreciate the interest. The format is aside from traditional SF. I'm using the comic medium mainly for the artistic quality. Forming panel descriptions is, different, not easy. I really drew a lot of inspiration from Josh Weldon's "Firefly" series. That gritty frontier spacey feel. I'd sent submissions to Radical publishing, sadly the format got messed up when I reformatted the file into adobe, I lost my 1st and 2nd draft revisions due it. I don't know how. I'm looking to dark horse now. I'm working through the 2nd draft on the first book as I type, and I've finished rough & 1st drafts for the second book. It's all just so time consuming.
 
  • #47
I could use a publishing agent to front living costs and further my motivation. I just don't know where or how to look for them.
 
  • #48
cruggero said:
What would a connection between a Nano-brain, like a synthetic intelligence, and a human entity be called? I know its not telepathy. In dialogue I refer to it as shared networking. That seems clear, but may have a loaded jargon to it.

Egonics!

Like bionics but with more ego.
 
  • #49
cruggero said:
I could use a publishing agent to front living costs and further my motivation. I just don't know where or how to look for them.

http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/aspiring-writers/
http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/publishers-and-industry/

Lots of talent spotters on the above boards I think. I doubt it is limited to the UK either. I also think money is a terrible motivator and it will be hard to get someone to pay your living expenses while you write... unless you have a proven track record.

Also, can we see some of your work?

Please?
 
  • #50
Absolutely, I'd be honored. Please keep in mind that this is a 2nd draft requiring further revision and proofing. It'll be the "intro".
 

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