Vectors/Tensors-spherical coordinates. z component of force of fluid on a sphere

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of the z component of the force exerted by a fluid on a sphere's surface, specifically within the context of fluid mechanics and spherical coordinates. Participants explore the integration of normal forces over the sphere's surface and the application of tensor mathematics to derive the necessary dot products.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about how to compute the dot products involved in the integral for the z component of the force on the sphere.
  • Another participant questions the notation used for the dot product between tensors and vectors.
  • A participant provides a detailed breakdown of the stress tensor and its components, referencing the Cauchy's Stress relationship to explain how to derive the stress vector and its z component.
  • There is a mention of using the textbook "Bird, Stewart, and Lightfoot" (BSL) for guidance on second-order tensors, suggesting that it contains relevant information for the problem at hand.
  • One participant indicates they have resolved their confusion regarding the calculations.
  • Another participant shares their background as a retiree who has experience with the original edition of BSL, adding a historical perspective to the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best approach to the problem, and there are multiple viewpoints regarding the application of tensor mathematics and the interpretation of the dot products involved.

Contextual Notes

Some participants reference specific components of the stress tensor and their relationships, but there is no resolution on the correctness of the steps taken in the calculations. The discussion includes varying levels of familiarity with the subject matter, which may affect the clarity of the exchanges.

racnna
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i am a chemical engineer but this is fluid mechanics stuff so i figured you physics geniuses would know this stuff

so to find the z component of force exerted by fluid on the surface of the sphere they find the normal force acting on a surface element of the sphere, integrated over the entire surface of the sphere. then dot it with unit vector in z direction. i am STUMPED as to how they found all the dot product in this integral. This is spherical coordinates

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/6281/forcer.png

here's the final result...
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5597/answern.png

please let me know if you need any additional information
 
Last edited by a moderator:
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hi racnna! :smile:

(δ and τ are tensors (matrices))

(i don't really approve of the "dot" between the tensor and the vector :redface:)

δ.δr = δr

δr.δz = rcosθ

etc :wink:
 
Last edited:
hey tim you mind walking me through it with a little more detail. i have been performing these dot products for hours hours and still can't arrive at the final integral.

in spherical coordinates...

τ =
rr τ 0 ]
θr 0 0 ]
[0 0 0 ]

pδ =
[p 0 0]
[0 p 0]
[0 0 p]

so pδ+τ=
[p+τrr τ 0]
θr p 0]
[0 0 p]

are those steps correct?
 
ooh nevermind...i think i got it now
 
racnna said:
i am a chemical engineer but this is fluid mechanics stuff so i figured you physics geniuses would know this stuff

so to find the z component of force exerted by fluid on the surface of the sphere they find the normal force acting on a surface element of the sphere, integrated over the entire surface of the sphere. then dot it with unit vector in z direction. i am STUMPED as to how they found all the dot product in this integral. This is spherical coordinates

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/6281/forcer.png

here's the final result...
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5597/answern.png

please let me know if you need any additional information

This is a response from a fellow chemical engineer. You seem to be using Bird, Stewart, and Lightfoot as your textbook. BSL has an appendix that teaches how to work with second order tensors, like the stress tensor. Here is a brief summary, customized to your problem:

For this problem, the stress tensor is given by

pδ + τ = T = Trr δrδr + T (δrδθ + δθδr) + Tθθ δθδθ + T[itex]\phi\phi[/itex] δ[itex]\phi[/itex]δ[itex]\phi[/itex]

According to Cauchy's Stress relationship, the stress vector σ (i.e., vectorial force per unit area) acting on the surface of the sphere is equal to the dot product of the stress tensor with a unit normal to the surface (in this case, the unit vector in the radial direction):

σ = δr [itex]\cdot[/itex] T = Trr δr + T δθ

The component of the force per unit area in the z direction is obtained by dotting the stress vector on the surface σ with a unit vector in the z direction:

σ [itex]\cdot[/itex] δz = Trr cosθ - T sinθ

I hope this helps. Study the appendix in BSL.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
hey there fellow ChE ...thanks!...just curious are you in grad school?
 
racnna said:
hey there fellow ChE ...thanks!...just curious are you in grad school?
Not exactly. I'm a 70 year old retiree who used the original edition of BSL, believe it or not, in 1962. The more recent editions of BSL reference a paper I did with my thesis advisor Joe Goddard (still active at UCSD) in the late 1960's.

Chet
 
oh wow...thats amazing. How would you compare the original version with the current version?
 
racnna said:
oh wow...thats amazing. How would you compare the original version with the current version?

I'll answer you in a private message so that we don't compel everyone else to be occupied in our chit chat.

Chet
 

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