Was the San Diego Fighter Jet Crash Preventable?

[Ivan Seeking]

SAN DIEGO (Reuters) - A fighter jet crashed on Monday into a California neighborhood near San Diego after the pilot ejected, destroying two homes, officials said.

Television images showed smoke billowing from the crash site of an F/A-18D fighter in a tightly packed suburban neighborhood near Marine Corps Air Station Miramar...

http://ca.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE4B76RK20081208

One quote that I heard: "Thank God it didn't hit the high school".

 

[SticksandStones]

Terrible. I heard two pilots ejected, but one's parachute didn't open.

 

[hypatia]

Wow, that's really scary. I hope the news continues to report of no one injured. We have several "ditch" areas around me, they are drawn into the city plans. I always wonder about it.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Two dead for sure, probably four. It sounds like it hit a house where a grandmother, mother, and two children lived. But the early reports are still sketchy.

 

[mgb_phys]

The BBC report 2 killed on the ground, there was only one pilot on board who ejected with minor injuries.

 

[Cyrus]

This is news why?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This is news why?

It's not. Now go back to plotting evil again the religious people.

 

[Cyrus]

It's not. Now go back to plotting evil again the religious people.

There's nothing spectaular about the crash even. We had a state police rescue chopper crash after picking up a car accident survivor. After the helicopter crashed the pilot died but the crash victim survived, yet again!

That's a lot more interesting story than a regular ole airplane crashing.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Yadda yadda yadda...grump grump grump...moan moan moan...

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

That's a lot more interesting story than a regular ole airplane crashing.

A fighter jet smashing into a house is much more interesting IMO.

 

[franznietzsche]

A fighter jet smashing into a house is much more interesting IMO.

There are a lot of things that can ruin your day real quick. An airplane landing on your house is right at the top of the list.

 

[Astronuc]

That's not too far from where my company is located. The offices are in a complex along the flight path, and we often see F-18's flying overhead.

The wife of one my colleagues is a principal at a school nearby, and some of the kids are from that neighborhood. They had the kids outide in the playground and saw the pilot eject. I think the pilot landed at the high school - or nearby.

Many years ago, a Navy jet fighter crashed into a business park where the old offices used to be. It burned a bunch of cars and blew some office window out and melted others. I've always wondered about it happening again in that area. All of those neighborhoods were vacant fields when the Naval Air Station was built.

 

[BobG]

There's nothing spectaular about the crash even. We had a state police rescue chopper crash after picking up a car accident survivor. After the helicopter crashed the pilot died but the crash victim survived, yet again!

That's a lot more interesting story than a regular ole airplane crashing.

That is a more interesting story. The helicopter's emergency locator transmitter even failed to activate. Verizon Wireless located the signal from one of the crew's cell phones so rescue workers could find the helicopter.

And, not only did the pilot die, the entire crew and the other car crash victim died. The injured driver of the car was the only survivor in the helicopter crash. College freshman comes home to see her mother promoted to Sergeant First Class, survives a car crash blocks from her home and even talks to her mom after the crash, then dies in a helicopter crash on the way to the hospital.

 

[Astronuc]

Apparently a grandmother, mother and daughter died in one of the houses.

The F-18 was inbound from the carrier Abraham Lincoln.

 

[BobG]

Apparently a grandmother, mother and daughter died in one of the houses.

The F-18 was inbound from the carrier Abraham Lincoln.

Did they all have sex with the same man? That would be interesting.

Actually, I watched the movie, Rumor Has It, and that really wasn't all that interesting.

I still think the helicopter crash was more interesting.

I did think it kind of interesting that, since the pilot landed in a schoolyard, the first thing bystanders thought of was what would have happened if the plane landed there instead. The pilot parachuting into a schoolyard doesn't mean the plane was even close to coming down in the schoolyard.

 

[mgb_phys]

I would have thought you would try and leave it it until pretty much the last second to eject if you are putting a large jet down in a neighbourhood and so you would expect to come down somewhere near the crash, the seat doesn't have to fire you very high for the chute to work.

According to wiki - a pilot flying into the same base in the 50s died steering his plane away from a school instead of ejecting. They named the school after him.

 

[Cyrus]

It depends on the nature of the crash. If the plane lost control for some reason, then what good does it do sitting in it until the last minute and killing both yourself and whatever may happen to be in the airplanes way.

I wonder why his airplane crashed though.

 

[BobG]

I would have thought you would try and leave it it until pretty much the last second to eject if you are putting a large jet down in a neighbourhood and so you would expect to come down somewhere near the crash, the seat doesn't have to fire you very high for the chute to work.

According to wiki - a pilot flying into the same base in the 50s died steering his plane away from a school instead of ejecting. They named the school after him.

Was it this school in Antwerp, Belgium?

Now that's a landing!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I had a neighbor in San Diego who had this one go right over his house as it was crashing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7b/W780925-1.jpg/230px-W780925-1.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_Flight_182

Still shaken by the event a few years later, he said that he could see the terror on the faces of the people in the windows as it went over.

 

[Cyrus]

I had a neighbor in San Diego who had this one go right over his house as it was crashing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7b/W780925-1.jpg/230px-W780925-1.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_Flight_182

Still shaken by the event a few year later, he said that he could see the terror on the faces of the people in the windows as it went over.

That was a really bad accident because a pilot in a small airplane was where he was NOT suppposed to be and they both collided in mid-air.

 

[mgb_phys]

Was it this school in Antwerp, Belgium?

Now that's a landing!

Or an over ambitious shop class.

If you ever saw the British TV - 'Ripping Yarns' by two of the pythons:

Mr. Ellis: [in woodwork class] What is that, Tomkinson?
Tomkinson: [standing before an enormous ship he's assembling] It's a model icebreaker, sir.
Mr. Ellis: It's a bit big for a model, isn't it?
Tomkinson: It's a full-scale model, sir.
Mr. Ellis: [annoyed] It's not a model if it's full-scale, Tomkinson, it's an icebreaker.
Tomkinson: Yes, it's good, isn't it, sir? It's got three engines, an enormous...
Mr. Ellis: No no no, that's not the point. That is not a model. It'll be hell if this comes out at speech day exhibition. You're a very stupid boy building icebreakers like this, Tomkinson.

 

[Astronuc]

Military jet had chance to land [elsewhere] before fatal crash
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090303/ap_on_re_us/military_jet_crash

SAN DIEGO – The pilot of a crippled military jet that crashed into a San Diego neighborhood and killed four people was offered a chance shortly before impact to land at a base with an approach over open water rather than head inland, recordings released Tuesday indicate.

Recordings of conversations between federal air controllers and the pilot of the F/A-18D reveal that the pilot at least twice was offered a chance to put down the plane at the Naval Air Station North Island in Coronado. The base sits at the tip of a peninsula with a flight path over water.

Instead, the Federal Aviation Administration tapes disclose that the pilot decided to fly the jet, which had lost one engine and was showing signs of trouble with the second, to the inland Marine Corps Air Station Miramar, which is about 10 miles north of Coronado.

That route took him over the University City neighborhood, where the Dec. 8 crash incinerated two homes and damaged three others.

Service officials in Washington, D.C., told lawmakers Tuesday that 13 Marines have been disciplined for errors that led to the crash. They said four officers at Miramar have been relieved of duty for directing the Hornet to fly over the residential area, while nine other military personnel received lesser reprimands.
. . . .

The pilot should have landed at North Island in Coronado, especially since he only had one engine and seemed to having trouble with it. He had to fly over residential areas to get to Miramar MCAS.

 

[Andre]

It certainly looks like some bad decisions were made. Why? Did he want to go to his home base, because diverting would disrupt other plans? Or maybe he was not familiar with the other base and wouldn't like to have the additional work load for orientation.

Anyway the emergency procedure checklist clearly states as last item in case of engine failures: "Land as soon as possible" which is not to fly a ten extra miles

 

[Astronuc]

It certainly looks like some bad decisions were made. Why? Did he want to go to his home base, because diverting would disrupt other plans? Or maybe he was not familiar with the other base and wouldn't like to have the additional work load for orientation.

Anyway the emergency procedure checklist clearly states as last item in case of engine failures: "Land as soon as possible" which is not to fly a ten extra miles

I'm not sure of the logic (or illogic), but Miramar is a Marine Corp station as opposed to Coronado, which is Navy. If it's a matter of interservice rivalry or an aversion to landing at a base of a different branch of the service, then there is something terribly wrong, since the public was put a risk (and three people killed and homes destroyed and damaged) over a stupid notion.

 

[Andre]

Of course it's all speculation but one of the elements, familiarity may have been important. If you're going home, it's all routine, radio and beacon frequencies, approach path and altitude, etc, done many times before. Going for an unplanned diversion needs extra work, finding the approach patterns, frequencies, etc. Not easy when you got your hands full with a dire emergency. Could have been a factor. What if it was a student on his first soloflight?

 

[FredGarvin]

10 miles in an F-18, even with one engine operable is not a big distance. Andre, how did you guys calculate your final approach distances?

Did this pilot underestimate the trouble with the second engine? If so, I can't imagine a twin engine aricraft with one engine out being a "land ASAP" situation. I would believe that it would be a "land as soon as practical" scenario (assuming one good engine) which is not the same thing. Maybe the fixed wing guys don't have that decision to make.

No doubt about it though...a bad decision.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I had a neighbor in San Diego who had this one go right over his house as it was crashing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7b/W780925-1.jpg/230px-W780925-1.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_Flight_182

Still shaken by the event a few years later, he said that he could see the terror on the faces of the people in the windows as it went over.

blah, I feel sick after reading that wiki page

 

[Andre]

10 miles in an F-18, even with one engine operable is not a big distance. Andre, how did you guys calculate your final approach distances?

True, 2-3 minutes flying, however coming from the south he was already on long finals while for homebase he had to fly an additional 6-10 miles to a final approach fix some 6-10 miles out at the extended centerline of the runway. That is 6 miles in The Netherlands (tight) and 10 miles in the USA. So all in all it would have taken 7-10 minutes longer,

Did this pilot underestimate the trouble with the second engine? If so, I can't imagine a twin engine aricraft with one engine out being a "land ASAP" situation. I would believe that it would be a "land as soon as practical" scenario (assuming one good engine) which is not the same thing. Maybe the fixed wing guys don't have that decision to make.

No doubt about it though...a bad decision.

The excess power of the F404 engine is not something to cheer about. You simply don't have the autority to do much with one engine out. Also you never know for sure why one engine is out and you loose all redundancy in electrical/hydraulical systems, only one generator/pump left. Therefore SOP = land as soon as possible (not 'practicable'), at least it was in my days.

 

[mgb_phys]

Andre,
Is there a general SOP that takes into account where you are?
Like just pointing the plane out to sea and pulling the big red lever.
It wastes a $50M aircraft and ejecting isn't exactly pleasant for the pilot but if it avoids putting a fuel (and potentially weapon) loaded aircraft into the middle of a city.

 

[Astronuc]

from the article I cited,

It's difficult to determine the pilot's precise location from the tapes, but he reported his position as 20 miles south of Coronado, flying at 13,000 feet with 20 to 30 minutes of fuel remaining, less than a minute before he was asked by controllers if he wanted to land at Coronado, according to the recordings.

The pilot was about 20 south of Coronado over the ocean, and that is 30 miles south of Miramar, which is 10 miles north of Coronado.

He should have put in at Coronado, which is on the water. He didn't need to fly over a residential area, and he could have landed before the second engine quit.

 

[Nick M]

Hmmm... he has an engine out with the option to land at a closer airport and decides to take it over a residential neighborhood? If this is the case I hope he gets some serious prison time... decades not months.

 

[LowlyPion]

But in the simulators no one gets killed when they eject over suburban neighborhoods.

 

[Vanadium 50]

We should place blame in the right place. Or places. The pilot was instructed by his squadron commander to land at Miramar, as the runway there is longer. The fact that there were problems in the fuel transfer system were known in July, and the aircraft flew 146 more flights without it being rectified.