News What Are the Implications of Shock and Awe Tactics in Baghdad?

[Adam]

Shock and Awe tactics, huh? Gosh, they certainly love the slogans over there. What that means in non-sloganeering English is: we've flattened half of Baghdad to "liberate" them. See the book if you wish.

http://www.dodccrp.org/shockIndex.html

 

[Andre]

Some theory

Well there is some theory on this type of warfare.

The latest contribution to that after Sun Tzu, Yomini, Von Clausewitz, Fuller, etc are from John Boyd and John Warden III, both former pilots in the USAF.

John Warden's five rings hypothesis in a http://www.russfound.org/Enet/enemy_system.htm
and John Boyd's http://www.fastcompany.com/online/59/pilot.html

Perhaps you recognise that the operation is orchestrated exactly with using those ideas

 

[Njorl]

Fortunately the anti-war crowd never resort to catchy one-line slogans in lieu of debate.

Njorl

 

[Nicool003]

Adam we destroyed his palace his military sites his chemical weapons sites his anti air sites. "We" by the way includes your country so I don't think you should say anything. In case you were mis-informed, Australia is in hte Coalition against iraq. By the way if half of bagdad was flattened it is because the whole city is covered in military sites and memorials to saddam (that he orddered made)


And by the way if you payed attention you would see very few Iraqi's like saddam yesterday hundreds of troops surrenedered. Today thousands did.

 

[Adam]

Nicool

Bollocks. Saddam has no chemical weapons. If he did, they would have been on the missiles he launched. But they were merely high explosive warheads. And no, half of Baghdad is NOT all palaces and chemical weapons factories that somehow mysteriously remained unnoticed right under the noses of UN inspectors for ten years.

 

[Nicool003]

Adam

Bollocks. Saddam has no chemical weapons. If he did, they would have been on the missiles he launched. But they were merely high explosive warheads

Ha. "merely high explosive warheads." do you know how horrible that sounds. No let me correct that. How horrible that IS?! And there have been several missles saddam launched at Kuwait(another group/ country that is being harmed by that pitiful dictator saddam)


And for your information this is the first time IN TEN YEARS that inspectors were allowed IN Iraq! so they were only hidden for the two months that inspectors were there. And there were implications they were hidden in underground places or under homes and maasques that inspectors don't have access too.

 

[Kerrie]

all day friday on the major corporate media news stations, i heard the term "shock and awe"...i got the feeling that they wanted to be responble for setting a theme of the destruction done...personally i feel corporate media is ridiculous...

 

[kyleb]

it would have been nice if more people understood that Kerrie.

 

[Creator]

As far as I'm concerned if Saddam's face & voice is still coming across Iraqi TV and radio, then they definitely were not shocked and awed enough!

 

[Nicool003]

Bollocks. Saddam has no chemical weapons. If he did, they would have been on the missiles he launched. But they were merely high explosive warheads. And no, half of Baghdad is NOT all palaces and chemical weapons factories that somehow mysteriously remained unnoticed right under the noses of UN inspectors for ten years.

Saddam does have chemical weapons! Found them today in special chemical factories and sites. They also captured one of the generals in charge of the facility. And By the way. Those high explosive warhead missles you said he launched? You forgot to mention that they were all missles HE WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE.

 

[Creator]

Originally posted by Nicool003
Saddam does have chemical weapons! Found them today in special chemical factories and sites. They also captured one of the generals in charge of the facility. And By the way. Those high explosive warhead missles you said he launched? You forgot to mention that they were all missles HE WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE.

Good point Nicool. I wish the Saddam sympathizers would get their head out of the sand.
The problem with hiding their head in the sand is that it exposes one's ass high above one's head.

I'm sure the chemical weapons that are found will have an inscription on them saying something like: "Made in France" .

So maybe we ought to 'return' them to their rightful owner; ha, ha. I suggest we bring them to the UN building and place them on desk of the French UN Ambasssdor, you know, the one who said 'we have NO evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction'. Watching him scramble for the nearest emergency exit would make the entire war worth the effort.

Creator

 

[Adam]

You need lessons in rational discussion.

If someone presents a fact, you can not dimiss the fact by saying "well, he likes chicken curry, therefore he's wrong". In other wrds, even if I was a "Saddam Sympathiser" as you say, that alone would not negate facts.

PS: I am not a "Saddam sympathiser". That's just stupid.

 

[damgo]

The attacks on Baghdad has actually seemed surprisingly careful to me. Even the Iraqi government isn't reporting more than 3 or 4 civilian casualties in the city so far.

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by Adam
PS: I am not a "Saddam sympathiser". That's just stupid.

you are obviously a supporter of evil in general, I'll bet you worship satan himself!

 

[Creator]

Originally posted by Adam
You need lessons in rational discussion.

If someone presents a fact, you can not dimiss the fact by saying "well, he likes chicken curry, therefore he's wrong". In other wrds, even if I was a "Saddam Sympathiser" as you say, that alone would not negate facts.

PS: I am not a "Saddam sympathiser". That's just stupid.

You need a lesson in rational intelligence, Adam.

When someone presents a fact you OUGHT to be able to recognze it rather than CONTINUING to hide your head in the sand.

One more time and maybe you will get it>>>MAYBE

Fact: Chemical weapons HAVE BEEN FOUND .

If you continue to bury your head in the sand we can only conclude yes, you ARE a die hard Saddam sympathizer.

We can only conclude you are sympathizing with a mass murderer, whose sons rape women AND MEN. Maybe that appeals to YOU, but we find it abhorent.
Its amazing that you want to appease these type of people.
Nevertheless, rest assured WE won't - In spite of your criticism and lack of courage WE WILL continue to stand against these devils.

Creator

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by Creator
Fact: Chemical weapons HAVE BEEN FOUND

i haven't heard that yet, do you have link?

 

[Adam]

Creator

Please show me the evidence that chemical weapons have been found.

 

[russ_watters]

Fact: Chemical weapons HAVE BEEN FOUND .

You may be jumping the gun here a little. A chemical weapons PLANT has been found. Its not yet clear if there are actual wepons in there though. Semantics in any case.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Nicool003
Ha. "merely high explosive warheads." do you know how horrible that sounds. No let me correct that. How horrible that IS?! And there have been several missles saddam launched at Kuwait(another group/ country that is being harmed by that pitiful dictator saddam)

Hmmmm...we have more high explosives, that makes us worse, right? At what point do you tell a contry that it cannot have any capacity to defend itself?

And for your information this is the first time IN TEN YEARS that inspectors were allowed IN Iraq! so they were only hidden for the two months that inspectors were there. And there were implications they were hidden in underground places or under homes and maasques that inspectors don't have access too.

Untrue. The inspectors were pulled out in 1998 so that America could resume bombings.

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by russ_watters
You may be jumping the gun here a little. A chemical weapons PLANT has been found. Its not yet clear if there are actual wepons in there though. Semantics in any case.

actcualy a chemical plant has been found, if you automaticly consider a chemical plant one for chemical weapons then we really need to clean up this country first.

 

[Njorl]

Originally posted by Zero


Untrue. The inspectors were pulled out in 1998 so that America could resume bombings. [/B]

Inspectors were told to stop inspections by the Iraqi government. When they tried to persist, they were imprisoned in their buses or held at gunpoint and threatened with death. Those conditions were not seen as conducive to continued inspections, so they were withdrawn.

You got the year right though.

Njorl

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Njorl
Inspectors were told to stop inspections by the Iraqi government. When they tried to persist, they were imprisoned in their buses or held at gunpoint and threatened with death. Those conditions were not seen as conducive to continued inspections, so they were withdrawn.

You got the year right though.

Njorl

Odd. I seem to remember the head of teh U.N. inspection teams supporting my perception of what happened...but what would he know?

 

[Njorl]

Originally posted by Zero
Odd. I seem to remember the head of teh U.N. inspection teams supporting my perception of what happened...but what would he know?

On Oct 31 1998 Iraq declared that inspections would cease. Shortly thereafter, Richard Butler withdrew inspection teams to Bahrain. On November 11th, Bill Clinton stated that serious military repercussions would result if inspections were not allowed to continue. On Nov 14, 1998, inspectors were re-admitted. Richard Butler was supplied by US intelligence with the locatins of several sites believed to be storage facilities for proscribed materiel. On Dec 8th, UNSCOM inspectors attempted to search one of these sites. Permission was refused.

Butler withdrew the inspectors again, on Dec 14th. Four days of bombing began on the 16th. You could say that inspectors were withdrawn to allow bombing, but the truth is there were no inspections after Oct 31 of any significance. The inspectors were withdrawn because they were doing nothing.

Njorl

 

[Nicool003]

Do you think there was nothing in a chemical plant that they found? Actually I believe tehy found two... But let's just focus on one right now. There was a GENERAL from the iraqi military in charge of it. Coincidence? No. Besides more has come out about it all you have to do is watch the news and read the newspaper and go online and search. Also the facility was hidden and they are holding the general in charge of the facility now. Also I believe they DID say there were weapons in there but I could have heard wrong I suppose.


Adam if you are not a supporter of saddam what are you? You seem very anti American. No let me correc that. you ARE very anti American. Most of your topics and posts are anti american. What gives?

 

[Nicool003]

You may be jumping the gun here a little. A chemical weapons PLANT has been found

Ummm let's think a little here if it is a CHEMICAL WEAPONS PLANT then what do they make in a CHEMICAL WEAPONS PLANT?

chemical weapons. Just read my last post I don't feel like repeating anything right now.

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by kyleb
actcualy a chemical plant has been found, if you automaticly consider a chemical plant one for chemical weapons then we really need to clean up this country first.

 

[Nicool003]

What was the point of that post? you quoted yourself and posted it. It sounds just stupid and lame the second time as it did the first...

 

[Adam]

Originally posted by Nicool003

Adam if you are not a supporter of saddam what are you? You seem very anti American. No let me correc that. you ARE very anti American. Most of your topics and posts are anti american. What gives?

I quite like America in general, and its people. However, I have these dislikes:

• Politicians.
• Bureaucrats.
• Hypocrisy.
• War.
• The above four combining to kill civilians.

 

[Nicool003]

If that is true (and I know it is I take your word for it) Then you have every reason to go against Iraq instead of the U.S.

 

[Adam]

Just as I dislike the US administration and not the US people, so I dislike the Iraqi administration and not the Iraqi people.

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by Nicool003
What was the point of that post? you quoted yourself and posted it. It sounds just stupid and lame the second time as it did the first...

you don't understand that there are other chemicals besides chemical weapons do you?

 

[russ_watters]

you don't understand that there are other chemicals besides chemical weapons do you?

It is pretty easy to tell from the specific chemicals in the warehouse what the plant is for.

Ummm let's think a little here if it is a CHEMICAL WEAPONS PLANT then what do they make in a CHEMICAL WEAPONS PLANT?

Easy, buddy. I'm on your side. My point was that they didn't find any actual chemical weapons in the plant. Its hairsplitting, yes. But those hairs are ones the rest of the world is going to split.

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by russ_watters
It is pretty easy to tell from the specific chemicals in the warehouse what the plant is for.

sure enough, but i have not heard reports of what specific chemicals were found.

 

[Nicool003]

O.K so you (Kyleb and Adam) Say there are no weapons of mass destruction and no chemical weapons? Saddam ordered his republican guard to use them at will as soon as allied forces reach the baghdad.

Also

 

[Adam]

Nicool003

1) Can you please show me the evidence that Saddam Hussein has ordered his Republican Guard to use chemical weapons?

2) Actually my personal suspicion is that Iraq has NBC weapons. However, I try to never let my own suspcions influence my actions. I must keep in mind that a suspicion is not a fact.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Adam
1) Can you please show me the evidence that Saddam Hussein has ordered his Republican Guard to use chemical weapons?

2) Actually my personal suspicion is that Iraq has NBC weapons. However, I try to never let my own suspcions influence my actions. I must keep in mind that a suspicion is not a fact.

Adam, you live in the new world, where whatever you make up to support your view becomes 'fact', and suspicion is as good as knowledge. If Fox News or Rush Limbaugh say it is true, it is true, by default, in a 1984 sort of way.

 

[Adam]

War is Peace!

Aka: "To liberate the Iraqi people, we're going to bomb the hell out of Baghdad."

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Adam
War is Peace!

Aka: "To liberate the Iraqi people, we're going to bomb the hell out of Baghdad."

'giving Iraq self-determination' = 'giving U.S. companies control of Iraqi resources and industries, and the Iraqi people have to accept the slave wages that those companies are willing to pay'

 

[Nicool003]

1) Can you please show me the evidence that Saddam Hussein has ordered his Republican Guard to use chemical weapons?

Oh give it up! Open your eyes! It's everywhere. Unless your media is so bad that you don't know about it. It's been on the news all day!

War is Peace! "To liberate the Iraqi people, we're going to bomb the hell out of Baghdad."

Not really. We are going to try to avoid civilian casualties. By the way speaking of civilians. Many Iraqi's have taken up the fight. They have been attacking Saddam husane's loyalists and troops.

'giving Iraq self-determination' = 'giving U.S. companies control of Iraqi resources and industries, and the Iraqi people have to accept the slave wages that those companies are willing to pay'

Oh great another one. IF you payed attention you would know that we are giving the Iraqi's control of their oil fields etc... Read what I just said to adam. You seem to think the Iraqi's like saddam husane. They DONT!

 

[damgo]

Looks like nothing at the site.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-2509601,00.html

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by Nicool003
Oh give it up! Open your eyes! It's everywhere.

 

[kat]

The officers and soldiers, led by Lt.-Col. James Johnson, were concerned by the large number of artillery shells found by the complex because, according to Naspaugh, the main means of deploying WMD is artillery shells.

"We gave our description of the complex to the higher-ups of the Fifth Corps and the 75th Exploration Task Force at Fort Sills," Naspaugh said.

"We will make our assessment of the complex to higher-ups. They will decide whether to send in another team that will come and take samples back to a laboratory that will use a gold standard. The only person who will announce such a finding is the president or the prime minister.

"I can't confirm or deny if there are chemical weapons here. In the bunker, we looked at, we found protective gear," Naspaugh said, referring to chemical-resistant masks, suits, and gloves.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1048562545224

 

[kyleb]

so it is all still speculation.

 

[Nicool003]

What is still all speculation? That the Iraqi citizens don't like him? Hey you know them morons that went and became a human shield? They interviewed a few people that left on the news yesterday and when asked why the left they reponded that they thought the Iraqi's liked or at least were fine with saddam but when they talked to iraqi citizens they were told what horrible and disgusting things he did to people who disliked him.

What is still all speculation? That he has weapons of mass destruction? He certainly does. He ordered them used and he already fired missles much stronger and longer ranged than he was supposed to have.

What is still all speculation? That the Iraqi's that are loyal to saddam are almost as evil as him? That they got American uniforms and are killing innocent iraqi citizens?

 

[Njorl]

I'm not convinced Iraq has chemical weapons that it can use in this war. Last I heard, Iraq had chemicals for chemical weapons. While they claimed that they had destroyed these chemicals, they offered no proof. There are scenarios that would lead to no use of chemical weapons though.

They might have destroyed the chemicals, and refused to prove it so as to keep the possibility alive for deterrence purposes. Foolish and unlikely, but possible.

They may not have had the opportunity to arm the chemicals into munitions while inspectors were in the country, or in the brief period between their departure and the beginning of fighting.

If they had no chemical weapons ready to use, the Iraqis would try to convince us that they did. They would make sure that we found chemical protection suits, and atropine injectors. This way, we expect and diligently prepare for an attack that doesn't happen.

That being said, we still have to assume that they will use them, and prepare accordingly.

Njorl

 

[Nicool003]

we still have to assume that they will use them, and prepare accordingly.

You took a good amount of time to write that whole post and in the end you come to basically the same conclusion I already mentioned. So you could have saved some time you know...

 

[russ_watters]

Cut him some slack, Nicool. Njorl clearly has taken the time to think through his opinion. Its refreshing considering all the knee-jerking going on here.

 

[Njorl]

It's tough being a liberal hawk.

Njorl

 

[Nicool003]

Cut him some slack, Nicool. Njorl clearly has taken the time to think through his opinion. Its refreshing considering all the knee-jerking going on here.

You are right although you have to admit, that was nothing next to what adam and kyleb are getting... Sorry Njorl it wasn't anything you said I was just saying that you basically said what I said and that you need not have typed all that. I had just responded to another of kyleb's posts so I wasn't thinking to clearly...sorry.

 

[damgo]

What is still all speculation? That he has weapons of mass destruction? He certainly does. He ordered them used and he already fired missles much stronger and longer ranged than he was supposed to have.

Well, despite what one might think from watching Faux News, there is still no evidence of Iraq using any banned weapons. The supposed SCUDS that were launched turned out to be perfectly legal (ironic term) short-ranged missiles.

Personally, I think it's fairly certain Saddam has a few chem weapons left, but no real evidence has been found of them yet. Does he have chemical production facilities left? Possibly, but I tend to doubt it. The US did a pretty good job of wiping those out it Gulf War I, and the off-and-on inspections probably made things quite difficult for Saddam recently.