What Defines a Nonreflexive Relation in Set Theory?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the definition and understanding of "nonreflexive relations" in set theory, particularly in the context of partial order relations. Participants explore the distinctions between nonreflexive and irreflexive relations, as well as provide examples to clarify these concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Peter seeks clarification on the definition of a nonreflexive relation, questioning whether it is characterized by the existence of some $$x$$ such that $$\langle x,x \rangle \in R$$ while also having some $$y$$ for which $$\langle y, y \rangle \notin R$$.
  • David states that a nonreflexive relation is defined as one where there exists an $$x$$ such that $$(x,x) \notin S$$, contrasting this with irreflexive relations, where no $$x$$ satisfies $$(x,x) \in S$$.
  • One participant provides an example of a relation that is reflexive, detailing the conditions under which it remains reflexive and how removing certain pairs would affect its reflexivity.
  • Another participant reiterates the same example, emphasizing the reflexive nature of the relation and discussing its symmetric properties, while also hinting at transitive properties without providing a definitive conclusion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the definitions of nonreflexive and irreflexive relations, and while some definitions are provided, there is no consensus on the nuances of these terms. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the precise distinctions and implications of these definitions.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights potential ambiguities in the definitions of nonreflexive and irreflexive relations, as well as the conditions under which a relation is considered reflexive or not. There are also unresolved aspects regarding the implications of symmetry and transitivity in relation to reflexivity.

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I am reading the book: "Discovering Modern Set Theory. I The Basics" (AMS) by Winfried Just and Martin Weese.

I am currently focused on Chapter 2: Partial Order Relations ...

I need some help with understanding the meaning of "nonreflexive relation"...

The section from J&W giving the various definitions of properties of binary relations is as follows:View attachment 7544Can someone please give the definition of a nonreflexive relation (as distinct form an irreflexive relation ... ) ...

Is a nonreflexive relation a relation where $$\langle x,x \rangle \in R$$ for some $$x$$ but where there exist $$y$$ such that $$\langle y, y \rangle \notin R$$ ... ... ?
Hope someone can help ...

Peter
 
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Hi,

Nonreflexive means that the relation is not reflexive. That is there is an x such that $(x,x)\not\in S$.
Irreflective is when there is no x such that $(x,x)\in S$

Regards
David
 
In the example given, the relation S= {(Kathy, Pam), (Pam, Kathy), (John, Paul), (Paul, John), (Kathy, Kathy), (Pam, Pam), (John, John), (Paul, Paul)} is reflexive because "for every x in F, (x, x) is in S". Here, F is {Kathy, Pam, Paul, John} so to be reflexive S must contain each of (Kathy, Kathy), (Pam, Pam), (John, John), and (Paul, Paul). If we were to remove anyone of those, say remove (Pam, Pam) to get {(Kathy, Pam), (Pam, Kathy), (John, Paul), (Paul, John), (Kathy, Kathy), (John, John), (Paul, Paul)}, that would no longer be "reflexive".

Notice that this relation contains (Kathy, Pam) and (Pam, Kathy) as well as (John,Paul) and (Paul, John) so is "symmetric"- whenever a symmetric relation contains (x, y) it must also contain (y, x).

I will leave it to you to show that "whenever the relation contains (x, y) and (y, z) then it contains (x, z)". the "transitive property", so that, in fact, this is an "equivalence relation" which is made clear from the description of the relation as "(x, y) is in the relation if and only if x and y are the same gender".
 
HallsofIvy said:
In the example given, the relation S= {(Kathy, Pam), (Pam, Kathy), (John, Paul), (Paul, John), (Kathy, Kathy), (Pam, Pam), (John, John), (Paul, Paul)} is reflexive because "for every x in F, (x, x) is in S". Here, F is {Kathy, Pam, Paul, John} so to be reflexive S must contain each of (Kathy, Kathy), (Pam, Pam), (John, John), and (Paul, Paul). If we were to remove anyone of those, say remove (Pam, Pam) to get {(Kathy, Pam), (Pam, Kathy), (John, Paul), (Paul, John), (Kathy, Kathy), (John, John), (Paul, Paul)}, that would no longer be "reflexive".

Notice that this relation contains (Kathy, Pam) and (Pam, Kathy) as well as (John,Paul) and (Paul, John) so is "symmetric"- whenever a symmetric relation contains (x, y) it must also contain (y, x).

I will leave it to you to show that "whenever the relation contains (x, y) and (y, z) then it contains (x, z)". the "transitive property", so that, in fact, this is an "equivalence relation" which is made clear from the description of the relation as "(x, y) is in the relation if and only if x and y are the same gender".
Thanks Pereskia and HallsofIvy... I appreciate your help ...

Sorry for the late response ... have had to contend with other urgent matters ...

Peter
 

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