What does the multiplication between two units mean?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the meaning and intuition behind the multiplication of units, particularly in the context of physics. Participants explore how multiplication between units can be understood, contrasting it with the more intuitive concept of division between units. The conversation touches on various applications and examples, including force, torque, and practical scenarios in shipping and measurement.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express that while division of units (e.g., velocity) is intuitive, multiplication (e.g., kg*m) lacks a clear intuitive understanding.
  • One participant suggests that multiplication could be thought of as "applied to," contrasting it with division which means "per."
  • Another participant describes multiplication of physical quantities using integral forms, relating it to area under a graph.
  • A model is proposed where if one quantity increases proportionally to two others, it can be represented as C = A * B, with units assigned accordingly.
  • An example from the shipping industry illustrates how to convert units from ton miles to kilogram meters, emphasizing the practical implications of unit multiplication.
  • Torque is mentioned as an example where the multiplication of force and distance is relevant, with a comparison of different weights and lever lengths.
  • Participants discuss the use of different units in measuring area and volume, noting that sometimes it is more convenient to use non-uniform units.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the intuition behind unit multiplication, with no clear consensus reached. Some agree on certain aspects of the discussion, while others present competing models and examples that highlight the complexity of the topic.

Contextual Notes

Limitations in understanding arise from the lack of intuitive concepts for some unit multiplications, and the discussion includes various assumptions about the relationships between quantities and their units.

Ehden
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It seems like division between two units is a simple intuitive concept to grasp, such as velocity, for every interval of time, a particle travels a certain distance. However, I've always had trouble trying to find an intuitive sense for multiplication between two units, e.g. what exactly does kg*m in the unit Newton intuitively mean?
 
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It's ##kg \cdot \frac{m}{s^2}## and means an accelerated ##1 \, kg## mass.
There isn't always an intuitive concept, e.g. units of some constants are sometimes pretty non-intuitive.
On the other hand ##m^2## or ##m^3## can be grasped naturally.

As you've said, division means "per". Multiplication perhaps can be thought of "applied to".
 
Ehden said:
It seems like division between two units is a simple intuitive concept to grasp, such as velocity, for every interval of time, a particle travels a certain distance.
Division of two physical quantities is a mathematical description of rate of change of one quantity w.r.t. the other. For example, m/s gives rate of change of displacement with respect to time, which we call as velocity. Division of physical quantities can be described using the derivative form i.e. v=dx/dt or a=dv/dt etc.
Multiplication of two physical quantities can be described using the integral form. It gives the area under the graph relating the two quantities.
e.g. s=∫v⋅dt or for constant v, s=vt. This gives the area bounded by v-t graph in a particular time interval.
 
If we observe that one quantity increases proportionally to quantity A and increases proportionally to quantity B, then we might make a model which looks like:
C = A * B
If A is in kg and B is in m, then it's natural to assign C the units of kg*m.
 
Khashishi said:
If A is in kg and B is in m, then it's natural to assign C the units of kg*m.
To make this concrete, consider a railroad in the shipping business. They charge $0.04 per ton mile

If you want to ship one ton 1000 miles, it will cost you $40.00
If you want to ship 100 tons 100 miles, it will cost you $400.00

To quote dollars per kilogram meter instead of dollars per ton mile they have to convert.

A meter is about 0.00062 miles. A kg is about 0.0011 U.S. short tons. A kilogram meter is about 0.00062 * 0.0011 = 0.000000682 ton miles.

Accordingly, the price quoted by this railroad should be about $0.000000027 per kilogram meter.
 
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Also - torque is a good example, the units are Force * Distance.

So a 10KG weight at the end of a 1M lever generates the same torque as 1 KG at the end of a 10M lever. Like seaSaws and balances.

Actually - look at area or volume. we prefer to use the same units, Like M*M - but you can say M * inches ( and upset some people) but it is still an area.
 
Windadct said:
Actually - look at area or volume. we prefer to use the same units, Like M*M - but you can say M * inches ...

And there are even a few situations in which it is more convenient not to use the same units. For example, in America commercial volumes of water are often measured in acre-feet - one acre-foot is the volume of water that will cover one acre one foot deep, or one-half-acre two feet deep, or ...
If you're considering how much water you need to irrigate a field of a given size, the acre-foot is a the most convenient unit.
 

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