What force classically held electron in the orbit?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter oldspice1212
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Electron Force Orbit
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the forces that hold electrons in orbit within atoms, exploring both classical and quantum mechanical perspectives. Participants examine the nature of these forces and the limitations of classical models in explaining atomic behavior.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the electromagnetic force is the classical force holding electrons in orbit, noting the use of electric potential in calculations.
  • Another participant argues that while electromagnetic force is the only classical force applicable, classical electromagnetism leads to issues due to radiative electrodynamics.
  • A third participant references the Bohr Model as an early classical approach to describe electrons in orbit, but acknowledges its limitations due to quantized energy levels.
  • One participant distinguishes between the interactions that keep electrons in orbit and the reasons they do not collapse into the nucleus, attributing this to conservation of quantum numbers rather than a direct interaction.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the electromagnetic force is the primary classical force involved, but there is no consensus on the adequacy of classical descriptions or the implications of quantum mechanics. Multiple competing views on the nature of these forces and their effects remain present.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the lack of a proper classical description for atomic systems, the dependence on specific interpretations of quantum mechanics, and unresolved issues regarding the behavior of electrons in relation to nuclear forces.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for individuals interested in atomic physics, quantum mechanics, and the historical development of models describing atomic structure.

oldspice1212
Messages
149
Reaction score
2
Hey, what force classically held electron in the orbit? Also what force is it actually (quantum mechanics).

I think it was the electromagnetic force classically, I haven't been able to find a legit source that says it was directly that, but when I do calculations with electrons and atoms I'm often using the electric potential. And for quantum mechanics, I'm not really sure at all, just curious and want to know, if someone has some sources?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Strictly speaking, there is no proper classical description of this system. But the only force you could actually think of classically is electromagnetic force, otherwise gravitational force is too weak and weak, strong interactions are purely quantum mechanical gauge theories that have no classical counterpart. However, the classical electromagnetism would cause problems due to radiative electrodynamics.

Quantum mechanically, we do not speak of forces in microscopic regime; we talk about potentials (or gauge particles in quantum fields). The electrons have bounded wavefunctions if the potential is larger than the total energy. For orbital electrons, the main contribution is electromagnetic potential. Again the gravity is too weak and length scale is too large for the nuclear interactions.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: oldspice1212
If you look up the Bohr Model (this link and many others) you will see an early Classical model, based on an actual charged particle in orbit around a nucleus - with the same equation as you will get for any non quantum system involving real forces. It doesn't work properly, though, because there are only certain, quantised energy levels ('orbit radii') that are found with atoms. The Shroedinger wave equation was the next step and that does a much better descriptive job.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: oldspice1212
Depends on what you mean by "holds in orbit."

If you mean, what interactions does an electron in an atom have? Then the answer is electromagnetism is extremely close to the entire story. You can understand experiments exceedingly accurately using only E&M. And a finite sized nucleus, which arises from nuclear forces.

If you mean, why does the electron not drop out of orbit and cozy up to the positive charge in the proton, that's a different matter. It's not exactly an interaction. It's more to do with the fact that various quantum numbers that are conserved could not be conserved if that happened. It's more a lack of interaction that would be required for such a thing to move forward.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: oldspice1212
Thank you everyone, you have answered my question.
I appreciate it!
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
1K
  • · Replies 34 ·
2
Replies
34
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
4K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K