What happened at Heathrow airport on Star Wars Day?

[Jonathan Scott]

Maybe he was a superhero, but not near as much as Rey. She could fly Falcon use Mind Trick without any training. The meelee part is ok.

I thought it was implied that when Kylo Ren first tried to force a connection to Rey's mind in Force Awakens, the result was a sudden awakening of Rey's awareness of the possibilities of the Force, perhaps from being able to pick up stuff from Kylo's mind, or from the pressure of resisting, or even both. However, I agree it does not seem consistent with the amount of training Luke was expected to need.

 

[Rive]

... it does not seem consistent with the amount of training Luke was expected to need.

If they plan to base the whole 'balance' stuff on something like the Son and Daughter duo then it makes sense that Ren and Rey to be exact match.

Of course, it's just speculation.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Speak about Mark Hamill, he also thinks Luke was ruined. How he died was especially humiliating. Like in Star Trek they droned the ship from Earth, then die because of a short circuit.

Whether or not that tabloid rag is correct just because Mark Hamill might have had issues with the character doesn't magically make the argument correct. I had no problem with the way he died. He used up a hell of a lot of energy and in that final moment looking at the pair of suns (just like his home) he faded into the force. I have no idea what the Star Trek comparison there is.

Luke learned how to fly and hunt small game.

Which is quite a weak background to suddenly being an ace fighter pilot and has nothing to do with the force.

His development lasted through three films, plenty of time in and out screen, and he needed two of the most powerful trainers.

Here's the thing about Jedi skill development that is true across all films: we rarely ever see them practicing directly or learning any theory. Luke was with those two teachers for no time and most of what they did was to try and put him in the right frame of mind. This is especially true of Yoda whose training was a combo of gym work and zen. We see this in the prequels too with a focus on meditation. One's ability to use the force seems predicated on one's ability to be "one with it" and let it "flow through you". The idea that a long period of academic study is needed isn't really bourne out in the films, because Luke achieved it in no time with no trainers. It's silly to criticize Rey for doing the same thing. Even Luke remarked on how powerful she was so it's not hard to believe she's getting it easier than most.

The only reason he could survive against Vader in Strikes Back that he didnt want to kill his son.

That's an interesting theory but doesn't really bear out given that Luke wins his second light sabre fight ever against vader.

Maybe he was a superhero, but not near as much as Rey. She could fly Falcon use Mind Trick without any training. The meelee part is ok.

She can use the falcon because she grew up as a scavenger engineer. There's plenty of dialogue showing she was involved in or very aware of the modifications made to the falcon. She has also spent her life working on Jakku. If you can't wrap your head around the idea that she would have picked up piloting skills (the same way as people who like restoring cars pick up driving skills) then I'm not sure how you can enjoy any film that doesn't explicitly state everything for you.

 

[paulo84]

I think you people are missing the point...when Rey asks to see her parents, she sees herself. Regardless of being born of nasty parents, she was also born of the midochlorians, like Anakin. The kid at the end is some other ridiculously powerful Jedi/Sith, possibly Kylo.

As for the weakness in the Death Star, that always seemed phallic to me.

 

[GTOM]

Whether or not that tabloid rag is correct just because Mark Hamill might have had issues with the character doesn't magically make the argument correct. I had no problem with the way he died. He used up a hell of a lot of energy and in that final moment looking at the pair of suns (just like his home) he faded into the force. I have no idea what the Star Trek comparison there is.

I came up with the Star Trek analogy to describe, that is very humiliating to fight remotely (and die) like Luke did in Last Jedi, he didnt go there, didnt leave his island.
IMHO they can't just make a hero like him to someone who only drones somekind of a projection. At least he should have deserved a valiant death, try to save someone (Leia, Rey) personally, not remotely.

Which is quite a weak background to suddenly being an ace fighter pilot and has nothing to do with the force.

Here's the thing about Jedi skill development that is true across all films: we rarely ever see them practicing directly or learning any theory. Luke was with those two teachers for no time and most of what they did was to try and put him in the right frame of mind. This is especially true of Yoda whose training was a combo of gym work and zen. We see this in the prequels too with a focus on meditation. One's ability to use the force seems predicated on one's ability to be "one with it" and let it "flow through you". The idea that a long period of academic study is needed isn't really bourne out in the films, because Luke achieved it in no time with no trainers. It's silly to criticize Rey for doing the same thing. Even Luke remarked on how powerful she was so it's not hard to believe she's getting it easier than most.

That's an interesting theory but doesn't really bear out given that Luke wins his second light sabre fight ever against vader.

She can use the falcon because she grew up as a scavenger engineer. There's plenty of dialogue showing she was involved in or very aware of the modifications made to the falcon. She has also spent her life working on Jakku. If you can't wrap your head around the idea that she would have picked up piloting skills (the same way as people who like restoring cars pick up driving skills) then I'm not sure how you can enjoy any film that doesn't explicitly state everything for you.

Luke and Anakin still needed long development.
First part, ok they can pilot, they are really lucky/guided by force. But no saber duel etc.
At second part, they still have lots of problems, fail against Vader/Dooku even though they had training.
At third part, after they had the best masters, they still fail, Anakin turns, Luke fails against Emperor, Anakin saves kis life.
I think even they are kind of superheroes, Lucas was careful not to make them Gary Stue.

It wasnt like, ok they pilot, mind trick, duel etc in first film, and defeat a dark lord in second (ok Kylo helped Rey, but he is also a mentally unstable one, and rather a beginner than a master).

 

[Jonathan Scott]

The prequel films explained that the Force can help its users see a short way into possible futures and choose between them, which is how for example they can use their light sabres to deflect incoming fire, pull off various other "lucky" escapes, and even guess how to operate unfamiliar equipment. That ability is surely a huge advantage when fighting or piloting (which one would assume should be as common in that context as being able to drive a car is to us).

 

[Stephenk53]

By the way the bombs that were dropped used electromagnetism to attract themselves to their target. I forget where I read that so I will have to find that link again.

Personally I liked the movie although it did have moments that I did not really like, such as the when Finn tried to abandon ship. It seemed to me that he would not have done that because he seemed more attached to the others from the previous movie now, unlike when he tried to leave in the force awakens.

 

[XZ923]

Which is quite a weak background to suddenly being an ace fighter pilot and has nothing to do with the force.

Luke grew up flying a T-16 Skyhopper through Beggar's Canyon (long, windy, narrow terrain) on Tatooine shooting unguided weapons at small targets. The T-16 is manufactured by the same company (Incom Corporation) that builds the T-65 X-wing Luke flew down a trench (a straight trench nonetheless) at Yavin to shoot an unguided weapon at a small target. It's no surprise that his experience in the T-16 and similar mission profiles of flying down trenches shooting at ~2meter targets gave him the skill set to shoot the proton torpedoes down the exhaust vent.

Here's the thing about Jedi skill development that is true across all films: we rarely ever see them practicing directly or learning any theory. Luke was with those two teachers for no time and most of what they did was to try and put him in the right frame of mind. This is especially true of Yoda whose training was a combo of gym work and zen. We see this in the prequels too with a focus on meditation. One's ability to use the force seems predicated on one's ability to be "one with it" and let it "flow through you". The idea that a long period of academic study is needed isn't really bourne out in the films, because Luke achieved it in no time with no trainers. It's silly to criticize Rey for doing the same thing. Even Luke remarked on how powerful she was so it's not hard to believe she's getting it easier than most.

In TFA she's able to call the lightsaber to herself from several meters away, with no training, against the will of Kylo Ren . Luke could barely move the same lightsaber a few inches on Hoth with some training (and without the bad guy trying to pull it to himself). She could use the power of alter mind with no training whatsoever, it took Luke three movies to figure that one out. I could go on.

BTW in AotC when Anakin loses his lightsaber in the opening chase scene he's unable to retrieve it via telekinesis (he clearly reaches for it, albeit briefly); Obi-Wan has to catch it for him. True, Anakin is distracted by holding onto Zam's speeder for dear life, but Rey still seems to have far more power than the Chosen One, who was literally conceived of the Force itself. Hence the "Mary Sue" tag. There's no suspense around the character because she's powerful enough to simply wipe out anyone in her way. It's lazy writing.

That's an interesting theory but doesn't really bear out given that Luke wins his second light sabre fight ever against vader.

After extensive off-screen training. Read "Shadows of the Empire" for details. Also he only won that fight by combining Jedi skill with dark side anger, somewhat similar to Mace Windu's Vaapad style.

She can use the falcon because she grew up as a scavenger engineer. There's plenty of dialogue showing she was involved in or very aware of the modifications made to the falcon. She has also spent her life working on Jakku. If you can't wrap your head around the idea that she would have picked up piloting skills (the same way as people who like restoring cars pick up driving skills) then I'm not sure how you can enjoy any film that doesn't explicitly state everything for you.

Her piloting and engineering skills make perfect sense. I'd even have no issue with the fact that in TFA she knows the Falcon better than Han, since Han hasn't seen the ship in a while. Not to mention the fact that ESB establishes that Han has had trouble repairing the Falcon in the past, at one point smacking a control board to turn it on. It's the ridiculous Jedi abilities that are galling.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Luke grew up flying a T-16 Skyhopper through Beggar's Canyon (long, windy, narrow terrain)...

This discussion is crossing streams. Earlier a criticism was made that you shouldn't have to read the wiki or the expanded universe for the film's to make sense. I agree and don't think Luke is portrayed in the films in a way that explains his skillset as well as Rey.

In TFA she's able to call the lightsaber to herself from several meters away, with no training, against the will of Kylo Ren .

Not only was Kylo injured but he actually helps her, not hinders her. The light sabre isn't between them while they both pull, Kylo is between Rey and the lightsabre. He is yanking on it to make it fly towards him, she manages to up its momentum so that it sails past him to her.

Luke could barely move the same lightsaber a few inches on Hoth with some training (and without the bad guy trying to pull it to himself).

Luke had no training with telekinesis and IIRC the hoth scene is the first time in star wars we ever see someone demonstrate force telekinesis. Yet he was able to do it despite being very badly beaten up and hanging from a ceiling.

She could use the power of alter mind with no training whatsoever, it took Luke three movies to figure that one out.

At the risk of becoming a parrot: nothing in the films has ever indicated that all jedi have to train/practice approximately the same amount for the same level of skill. It's all about being of the right mindset that makes you one with the force. Possibly from the other end its all about the force "wanting" to be one with someone, meaning that the lightside is even keener to make a connection to someone.

BTW in AotC when Anakin loses his lightsaber in the opening chase scene he's unable to retrieve it via telekinesis (he clearly reaches for it, albeit briefly); Obi-Wan has to catch it for him. True, Anakin is distracted by holding onto Zam's speeder for dear life, but Rey still seems to have far more power than the Chosen One, who was literally conceived of the Force itself. Hence the "Mary Sue" tag. There's no suspense around the character because she's powerful enough to simply wipe out anyone in her way. It's lazy writing.

She doesn't just wipe anyone out of her way. In both films she has been put into situations where her escape was difficult and needed to be aided by others. She managed to get out of the torture chamber by mind tricking sure (which very nearly doesn't work and sees her further beaten/restrained) but she doesn't manage to get off the base. In TLJ she is captured and taken to Snoke and only escapes that because Kylo is using her to kill Snoke.

As for Anakin I'd say that was more an issue with his writing than Reys. We see him playing with telekinesis all the time so it's weird that he doesn't use it more in combat.

After extensive off-screen training. Read "Shadows of the Empire" for details. Also he only won that fight by combining Jedi skill with dark side anger, somewhat similar to Mace Windu's Vaapad style.

It's the Expanded Universe, not the Explanation Universe. You shouldn't have to read anything to understand the film.

Her piloting and engineering skills make perfect sense. I'd even have no issue with the fact that in TFA she knows the Falcon better than Han, since Han hasn't seen the ship in a while. Not to mention the fact that ESB establishes that Han has had trouble repairing the Falcon in the past, at one point smacking a control board to turn it on. It's the ridiculous Jedi abilities that are galling.

I feel like I'm just never going to agree with Star Wars fans that find her abilities ridiculous. It's like we've not even watched the same films. In every original film we were randomly shown new force powers as the plot demanded (whether that be making a sound to distract guards, telekinesis, prophetic acid trips about one's father, lightning etc.). The force is hardly consistent and we've never been shown some sort of rigorous Jedi Training curriculum. The closer you are to the force, the easier the abilities are. That fits with Rey just as much as it fitted with Luke.

 

[XZ923]

This discussion is crossing streams. Earlier a criticism was made that you shouldn't have to read the wiki or the expanded universe for the film's to make sense. I agree and don't think Luke is portrayed in the films in a way that explains his skillset as well as Rey.

"It's not impossible, I used to bulls-eye womp rats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than 2 meters".
In addition, the expanded version of ANH shows Luke's childhood friend Biggs Darklighter (Red 3) explaining to Garven Dreis (Red Leader) that Luke is the best canyon flyer in the Outer Rim territories (hundreds of systems). Admittedly, the movies don't establish Incom as the manufacturer of both, that is EU, but there is strong evidence in the movies for Luke having the skill to pilot the X-Wing at the Battle of Yavin.

Not only was Kylo injured but he actually helps her, not hinders her. The light sabre isn't between them while they both pull, Kylo is between Rey and the lightsabre. He is yanking on it to make it fly towards him, she manages to up its momentum so that it sails past him to her.

Sure, you have the alignment right, but it doesn't change the fact that they're both trying to pull it to them and she's exerting Force control over it. Even putting aside for the moment she's never been taught how to do this, Ren would have had to be completely unaware of her efforts. Throughout the movies, powerful Force users have been able to sense each other's Force use across entire solar systems. You're suggesting that Ren (who TLJ establishes as being roughly equal in power to Rey) couldn't sense Rey's efforts from a few feet away and thus adjust his efforts? Then she managed to use a style of weapon she's never wielded before to defeat Ren in a duel? Yes, I know he's injured, but this is still ridiculous. Remember, Anakin lost to Count Dooku the first time despite being the Chosen One and having roughly a decade of training under his belt.

Luke had no training with telekinesis and IIRC the hoth scene is the first time in star wars we ever see someone demonstrate force telekinesis. Yet he was able to do it despite being very badly beaten up and hanging from a ceiling.

He had been under the tutelage of Obi-Wan, however briefly, and could have picked up the basics from him. Rey has never encountered a Jedi.

At the risk of becoming a parrot: nothing in the films has ever indicated that all jedi have to train/practice approximately the same amount for the same level of skill. It's all about being of the right mindset that makes you one with the force. Possibly from the other end its all about the force "wanting" to be one with someone, meaning that the lightside is even keener to make a connection to someone.

Of course it's true that people of different skill levels and aptitudes train at different rates. She has received zero. Zip. Nada. She went from believing the Jedi were a myth (established in TFA) to being a master of their skills without ever encountering one or any training material.

She doesn't just wipe anyone out of her way. In both films she has been put into situations where her escape was difficult and needed to be aided by others. She managed to get out of the torture chamber by mind tricking sure (which very nearly doesn't work and sees her further beaten/restrained) but she doesn't manage to get off the base. In TLJ she is captured and taken to Snoke and only escapes that because Kylo is using her to kill Snoke.

The only thing she needed her "rescuers" for in TFA was a ride off Starkiller Base, and she surrendered willingly to Snoke to try to turn Ren.

As for Anakin I'd say that was more an issue with his writing than Reys. We see him playing with telekinesis all the time so it's weird that he doesn't use it more in combat.

Sure, he uses it all the time after being trained in it by Obi-Wan (probably also how Luke got the skill; see above). If Rey were in the podrace scene she'd probably Force-pull the energy bindings of Sebulba's pod apart.

It's the Expanded Universe, not the Explanation Universe. You shouldn't have to read anything to understand the film.

If you want to just watch the movies, great. But you can't go outside the movies to the EU then be upset when the EU explains the movies.

I feel like I'm just never going to agree with Star Wars fans that find her abilities ridiculous. It's like we've not even watched the same films. In every original film we were randomly shown new force powers as the plot demanded (whether that be making a sound to distract guards, telekinesis, prophetic acid trips about one's father, lightning etc.). The force is hardly consistent and we've never been shown some sort of rigorous Jedi Training curriculum. The closer you are to the force, the easier the abilities are. That fits with Rey just as much as it fitted with Luke.

It's not her abilities that are the issue. It's her story. Every other character has a backstory explaining how they got where they are. Anakin/Vader is the Chosen One, conceived by the Force and trained by the Jedi Master Obi-Wan. Yoda has been a Jedi Master for hundreds of years. Palpatine is the embodiment of the dark side, Master of the Sith, trained by Plagueis. Luke is the son of the Chosen One, trained by Obi-Wan. Leia is the daughter of the Chosen One, trained by Luke (established by surviving the vacuum of space in TLJ). Ren is the grandson of the Chosen One, trained by Luke, then corrupted by Snoke (who is just as bad as Rey in terms of having no story). Rey just is. She just wakes up one morning and is suddenly a Jedi Master. That's why I call her a "Mary Sue" character and say it's lazy writing.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

"It's not impossible, I used to bulls-eye womp rats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than 2 meters".
In addition, the expanded version of ANH shows Luke's childhood friend Biggs Darklighter (Red 3) explaining to Garven Dreis (Red Leader) that Luke is the best canyon flyer in the Outer Rim territories (hundreds of systems). Admittedly, the movies don't establish Incom as the manufacturer of both, that is EU, but there is strong evidence in the movies for Luke having the skill to pilot the X-Wing at the Battle of Yavin.

These lines don't really explain anything (except the canyon one which I'm not familiar with). What a T-16 is and what it means to bulls-eye is completely unclear. You might as well say "I used to shoot roadsigns from my jeep, sure I'm an expert fighter pilot".

Sure, you have the alignment right, but it doesn't change the fact that they're both trying to pull it to them and she's exerting Force control over it. Even putting aside for the moment she's never been taught how to do this, Ren would have had to be completely unaware of her efforts. Throughout the movies, powerful Force users have been able to sense each other's Force use across entire solar systems. You're suggesting that Ren (who TLJ establishes as being roughly equal in power to Rey) couldn't sense Rey's efforts from a few feet away and thus adjust his efforts? Then she managed to use a style of weapon she's never wielded before to defeat Ren in a duel? Yes, I know he's injured, but this is still ridiculous. Remember, Anakin lost to Count Dooku the first time despite being the Chosen One and having roughly a decade of training under his belt.

Ren is badly wounded, so badly wounded he is really struggling to pick up the sabre. Not only that but he's just killed his father and it there's one thing we know about Kylo it's that he suffers from some deep emotional conflict that screws up a lot of what he does. Again because this is getting repetitive:

1) Yes ray has never been trained or shown how to do anything. But luke had barely anything more. Did he know telekinesis was possible before pulling the sabre? Genuine question. Is there anything in the films that shows telekinesis before that scene on Hoth where luke does it for the first time?

2) She has fought melee combat a lot in her life as indicated by her constantly running around with a metal staff that she uses to knock out fin and holds threatening at people all the time. Combined with Kylo being badly injured (the dude is barely standing properly) yeah it makes sense. And again: how much training with a sabre are we shown Luke as doing? His first fight is Vader and he holds his own for ages, yet Vader isn't wounded at all.

3) The prequels suggest that it takes years of training to master the force. But they do nothing to suggest that one can't be naturally very good. 10 year old Anakin is predicting the future, who knows what he would have been doing unaided by Rey's age.

He had been under the tutelage of Obi-Wan, however briefly, and could have picked up the basics from him. Rey has never encountered a Jedi.

Luke barely encounters any Jedi throughout the original trilogy. Yet he easily picks up the force, all Jedi capabilities and is termed Master by the end. If you can watch the originals and enjoy them without worrying about Luke's abilities then I have no idea how you can be so nitpicky about the new films.

Of course it's true that people of different skill levels and aptitudes train at different rates. She has received zero. Zip. Nada. She went from believing the Jedi were a myth (established in TFA) to being a master of their skills without ever encountering one or any training material.

Luke had never really heard about the force either until Obi-Wan told him about it. His "training material" consists of wearing a helmet for ten seconds while a ball shoots lasers at him. And he gets it instantly when Obi-Wan tells him to "feel it". From the films the idea of the force being strong with someone (referenced over and over) appears to be linked with how instinctively one can use it, rather than the raw power.

The only thing she needed her "rescuers" for in TFA was a ride off Starkiller Base, and she surrendered willingly to Snoke to try to turn Ren.

Right. And in neither situation did she wade through solving all her problems with force powers did she? As you suggested.

Sure, he uses it all the time after being trained in it by Obi-Wan (probably also how Luke got the skill; see above). If Rey were in the podrace scene she'd probably Force-pull the energy bindings of Sebulba's pod apart.

Yes he uses telekinesis but not in the situation you brought up. That's more a failure of the prequels than the new films. The rest of that sentence is well into territory of just baseless speculation. Rey has used comparatively little force powers in the films and they've almost all been small things well timed. Just like using the force to see the future constantly and race flying cars.

If you want to just watch the movies, great. But you can't go outside the movies to the EU then be upset when the EU explains the movies.

I didn't go outside to the EU...? You did.

It's not her abilities that are the issue. It's her story. Every other character has a backstory explaining how they got where they are. Anakin/Vader is the Chosen One, conceived by the Force and trained by the Jedi Master Obi-Wan. Yoda has been a Jedi Master for hundreds of years. Palpatine is the embodiment of the dark side, Master of the Sith, trained by Plagueis. Luke is the son of the Chosen One, trained by Obi-Wan. Leia is the daughter of the Chosen One, trained by Luke (established by surviving the vacuum of space in TLJ). Ren is the grandson of the Chosen One, trained by Luke, then corrupted by Snoke (who is just as bad as Rey in terms of having no story). Rey just is. She just wakes up one morning and is suddenly a Jedi Master. That's why I call her a "Mary Sue" character and say it's lazy writing.

If that's lazy writing it's no different to any other part of star wars. Luke is literally the hero of a thousand faces. Rey isn't a master at all, she is an ordinary person who is strong with the force (possibly because of the lack of Jedi's for such a long time the force is becoming more desperate to correct the balance, as suggested multiple times in the films). The films never established that being a Jedi, let alone a long one, was a hereditary boon.

Rey not being some sort of secret child of a space aristocracy was brilliant, along with the reveal that people are awakening with force powers across the galaxy.

 

[XZ923]

These lines don't really explain anything (except the canyon one which I'm not familiar with). What a T-16 is and what it means to bulls-eye is completely unclear. You might as well say "I used to shoot roadsigns from my jeep, sure I'm an expert fighter pilot".

A T-16 is a smaller aircraft made by the same people who make the X-wing. We don't know it, but they do, hence Biggs' line. Seriously, watch the extended version of ANH. Biggs Darklighter, Luke's childhood friend who flew with him on Tatooine, and who already IS an expert fighter pilot, clearly stated Luke was fully capable of flying the X-wing. He knows the pilot, he knows the fighter.

Ren is badly wounded, so badly wounded he is really struggling to pick up the sabre. Not only that but he's just killed his father and it there's one thing we know about Kylo it's that he suffers from some deep emotional conflict that screws up a lot of what he does. Again because this is getting repetitive:

1) Yes ray has never been trained or shown how to do anything. But luke had barely anything more. Did he know telekinesis was possible before pulling the sabre? Genuine question. Is there anything in the films that shows telekinesis before that scene on Hoth where luke does it for the first time?

2) She has fought melee combat a lot in her life as indicated by her constantly running around with a metal staff that she uses to knock out fin and holds threatening at people all the time. Combined with Kylo being badly injured (the dude is barely standing properly) yeah it makes sense. And again: how much training with a sabre are we shown Luke as doing? His first fight is Vader and he holds his own for ages, yet Vader isn't wounded at all.

3) The prequels suggest that it takes years of training to master the force. But they do nothing to suggest that one can't be naturally very good. 10 year old Anakin is predicting the future, who knows what he would have been doing unaided by Rey's age.

1. Again, Luke had spent time with Obi-Wan. There is a clear pathway for Luke to acquire this skill. Obi-Wan was beginning to train him; it's entirely reasonable he taught Luke the extreme basics of telekinesis. There is no such path in the story for Rey.
2. No offense, but I'd suggest you re-watch ESB because you've missed the whole point of the Luke/Vader fight. Vader's toying with him. At the start he only holds the lightsaber with one hand and he's barely trying. He gets progressively tougher until the end because he's trying to show Luke how inadequate he is compared to him. Luke gets a lucky shot on his shoulder, at that point Vader has had enough and cuts Luke's hand off, at which point he makes his big reveal. Vader was always in control of that duel. His goal wasn't to kill Luke (that would have been easy); he was trying to turn him to the dark side so he could mold him to be his apprentice and together take down the Emperor. Remember, he promised to "complete" Luke's training. Meaning Luke had at least started.
3. You can be naturally very good, certainly. However, the foresight you describe in Anakin is a passive ability rather than an active skill. In the scene you're referring to Qui-Gon himself refers to it as a "trait".

Luke barely encounters any Jedi throughout the original trilogy. Yet he easily picks up the force, all Jedi capabilities and is termed Master by the end. If you can watch the originals and enjoy them without worrying about Luke's abilities then I have no idea how you can be so nitpicky about the new films.

Luke is trained by both Yoda and Obi-Wan. Rey is trained by no one.

Luke had never really heard about the force either until Obi-Wan told him about it. His "training material" consists of wearing a helmet for ten seconds while a ball shoots lasers at him. And he gets it instantly when Obi-Wan tells him to "feel it". From the films the idea of the force being strong with someone (referenced over and over) appears to be linked with how instinctively one can use it, rather than the raw power.

That's all they showed in the movie. We don't know how long it takes to get to Alderaan from Tatooine. If Rey spent just one day with a Jedi I'd have no objection. Maybe she is a prodigy. But even Bobby Fisher had to be taught how to play chess at some point. You can't just sit him down at a board he's never experienced before and expect him to tie Donald Byrne into knots no matter how good he is.

Right. And in neither situation did she wade through solving all her problems with force powers did she? As you suggested.

I didn't say she solved all problems with the Force. I said she has displayed skills using the Force she had no avenue within the story to learn.

Yes he uses telekinesis but not in the situation you brought up. That's more a failure of the prequels than the new films. The rest of that sentence is well into territory of just baseless speculation. Rey has used comparatively little force powers in the films and they've almost all been small things well timed. Just like using the force to see the future constantly and race flying cars.

"Comparatively little", "small things well timed"? She's apparently mastered Alter Mind, telekinesis, and lightsaber combat.

I didn't go outside to the EU...? You did.

You tried to draw a distinction between (in your words) "The Explanation Universe" vs. "The Expanded Universe". I was stating that the Expanded Universe IS an explanation; it fills in the gaps that a series of movies can't possibly cover all of.

If that's lazy writing it's no different to any other part of star wars. Luke is literally the hero of a thousand faces. Rey isn't a master at all, she is an ordinary person who is strong with the force (possibly because of the lack of Jedi's for such a long time the force is becoming more desperate to correct the balance, as suggested multiple times in the films). The films never established that being a Jedi, let alone a long one, was a hereditary boon.

Rey not being some sort of secret child of a space aristocracy was brilliant, along with the reveal that people are awakening with force powers across the galaxy.

Rey is showing power and skills beyond anything Luke has exhibited without ever meeting a Jedi. I have no issue with her being strong in the Force; I have an issue with somehow being able to perform skills that every other Jedi in the franchise has had to learn from somewhere.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

This is going round and round and round in circles. It boils down to you thinking that the few minutes of luke training we see in the original films (with absolutely no indication or mention of any specific force training or theory) explains all of his development. I’ve never taken from the originals that Luke got powerful because he trained (because barely anything was shown or mentioned and he didn’t even finish his CrossFit lessons in the swamp) but rather that he was good because he was powerful with the force. This is the same as Rey from the perspective of what we’re shown. Furthermore Rey isn’t some force master, Snoke is the only master we see and he easily dominates her with his powers. He’s only killed through trickery.

TL;DR the films never establish that training is necessary to learn the force. Rather the force is easy to learn instinctively if you’re strong with it. It may be hard to master, but Rey is not a master.

 

[XZ923]

This is going round and round and round in circles. It boils down to you thinking that the few minutes of luke training we see in the original films (with absolutely no indication or mention of any specific force training or theory) explains all of his development. I’ve never taken from the originals that Luke got powerful because he trained (because barely anything was shown or mentioned and he didn’t even finish his CrossFit lessons in the swamp) but rather that he was good because he was powerful with the force. This is the same as Rey from the perspective of what we’re shown. Furthermore Rey isn’t some force master, Snoke is the only master we see and he easily dominates her with his powers. He’s only killed through trickery.

TL;DR the films never establish that training is necessary to learn the force. Rather the force is easy to learn instinctively if you’re strong with it. It may be hard to master, but Rey is not a master.

If that was the case what's the point of even having a Jedi Academy, or even a Jedi Order at all? That statement is completely contradictory to the first six movies. If no one has to teach you how to use the Force, why do they even bother having Masters and Apprentices in the first place?

I reiterate my example of Bobby Fischer here. He accomplished truly unbelievable things in chess. He transcended anyone who might have been involved in teaching him. But at some point he had to learn what a knight is. He had to learn why the queen matters more than the bishops. Rey doesn't even know what the Force is. You could put Babe Ruth at the plate, if he doesn't know the rules of the game he probably won't hit a home run. For all he knows he's supposed to conk the catcher in the head with the bat and try to catch the pitch. Give Mozart a piece of paper and pen with no education and you're not going to get a symphony. And so on and so forth.

Rey may be the Bobby Fischer/Babe Ruth/Mozart of the Jedi. She may be more powerful than the Chosen One himself. She may be the greatest, most powerful Jedi of all time, able to defeat Yoda, Luke, and Anakin all at once (if they weren't dead, of course). Even if the explanation for her skills was far-fetched, such as if she didn't have a teacher but had some kind of window to Jedi knowledge, perhaps if she had grown up studying the Jedi (at the subtle nudge of the Force, no doubt) that would be one thing. But she literally goes from believing them to be a myth to being skilled in their craft with nothing in between. There's no causality. There's no link between the two events in the character arc. That's why I call it lazy writing and her a Mary Sue.

That said, I do respect your opinion. I don't agree with it but this is fiction and entertainment is in the eye of the viewer.

 

[russ_watters]

This is going round and round and round in circles. It boils down to you thinking that the few minutes of luke training we see in the original films (with absolutely no indication or mention of any specific force training or theory) explains all of his development. I’ve never taken from the originals that Luke got powerful because he trained (because barely anything was shown or mentioned and he didn’t even finish his CrossFit lessons in the swamp) but rather that he was good because he was powerful with the force. This is the same as Rey from the perspective of what we’re shown. Furthermore Rey isn’t some force master, Snoke is the only master we see and he easily dominates her with his powers. He’s only killed through trickery.

TL;DR the films never establish that training is necessary to learn the force. Rather the force is easy to learn instinctively if you’re strong with it. It may be hard to master, but Rey is not a master.

Yoda starts off saying Luke* is too old and the 2nd series expands on this mantra by showing the "young-lings" training from near infancy, but you're absolutely right: it's practically a big joke, that the most powerful Jedi are some of the least trained/naturally gifted. The training really is secondary.

I thought the movie was just mediocre, but have a more detailed review pending. Short version: Star Wars is like pizza; when it's bad, it's still pretty good.

*Still waiting for Jedi Leia.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

If that was the case what's the point of even having a Jedi Academy, or even a Jedi Order at all? That statement is completely contradictory to the first six movies. If no one has to teach you how to use the Force, why do they even bother having Masters and Apprentices in the first place?

As I said: easy to learn hard to master.

With Anakin, Luke and Rey (the only three characters we've seen start their journey into using the force) two of them began using it instinctively and one only required the bare minimum of prodding. Luke went on to be considered a Jedi master by people despite minimal training. Training/practice seems to be required to get to the levels that the films have mostly teased us about: the ability to not die but merge with the force, sith lightning, immortality, astral projection etc. But the intro level stuff, the mind tricks and floating rocks. That's all instinctive.

As for the academy it had a role beyond just teaching the force. It had to instill the philosophy and work practices appropriate for Jedi's who had a specific set of roles beyond just being force users.

I reiterate my example of Bobby Fischer here.

Chess is a bad example and I have no idea who Babe Ruth is. Sports have rules, theories and physical moves that require practice to get right. Nothing we've seen in the movies suggests the force works like this, at least for the basic abilities. You have to just be in the right frame of mind to instinctively use it. Nothing in the films has shown Jedi having to learn equations describing force interactions, practice very specific physical moves (excepting lightsabre work) or anything else that really mimics academic or vocational study. The Jedi are modeled more on spiritualism than anything else.

That said, I do respect your opinion. I don't agree with it but this is fiction and entertainment is in the eye of the viewer.

Thanks. I see your point (shared by others), my frustration with it is that it smacks of disparaging new content because it doesn't conflate with an idealised, rather than realistic, version of old content.

 

[XZ923]

Thanks. I see your point (shared by others), my frustration with it is that it smacks of disparaging new content because it doesn't conflate with an idealised, rather than realistic, version of old content.

What's ironic is that that's the exact reason I dislike Rey. She's the "perfect" Jedi despite not having any working knowledge OF the Jedi.

 

[GTOM]

My final words before quit.

My personal theory, that while it is true that Ben didnt train much Luke, but by sacrifice himself, he could upload additional knowledge, guide him as ghost. Luke was a good pilot, but except that shot, nothing extraordinary in New Hope. Vader could have simply killed him, but he sensed, a Force user, then only wanted to disable his fighter.

TLJ:

If at least Luke killed Snoke or saved Leia or something like that.

Luckily we arent the same.
But I don't like, that in case Luke let's be realistic, just because he was such a great hero, he can become a bitter hermit, and sacrificed like that...
In case of Rey it is a fairy tale, she is a strong force user and that is it.

I liked Rogue One, because the ending wasnt a fairy tale for no one. I like other films because they are a fairy tale for multiple characters, not just for new chosen one.

 

[DennisN]

My personal theory, that while it is true that Ben didnt train much Luke, but by sacrifice himself, he could upload additional knowledge, guide him as ghost. Luke was a good pilot, but except that shot, nothing extraordinary in New Hope. Vader could have simply killed him, but he sensed, a Force user, then only wanted to disable his fighter.

You simply have to see the funny video in this thread :
https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...ack-in-the-universe-was-an-inside-job.862077/

EDIT: It seems the audio for that clip has been removed, but here is a copy of the clip with audio:

 

[Khashishi]

I thought The Last Jedi was the best Star Wars movie so far, though I have not seen Rogue One yet. It is a lot more complex than the original trilogy, which more or less amount to a battle between good and evil, where good is saved by some legendary heroes. TLJ is a lot more unpredictable, and there were conflicts between good guys and good guys, and also between bad guys and bad guys.

The only real issues I had are that it felt like Snope was defeated too easily and in an obvious manner. And when the First Order was blowing up the transports, it kept going to shots of transports getting blown up one by one, interspersed with the antics of Rose and Finn. The tension felt way too forced, and drawn out in a silly way. How many transports are there total? It just seemed like an arbitrary number, and of course Leia's ship survives, due to dumb luck.

I have some issues with the hyperspace ramming by the cruiser. If such an attack be possible, then why do they even bother with lasers and bombs? Clearly, all the fights should be resolved with hyperspace missiles. Are you seriously expecting me to believe that it simply didn't occur to them before that battle?

 

[DennisN]

and I will write a review here soon. I am very divided how I feel about it.

I can't write a review yet, I got too confusing feelings from the movie. I have to see it again .

Edit: I changed my mind, I'll write it now...

A lot of potential in the movie, some amazing action and good fun, but also a lot of things that were unnecessary, e.g. unnecessary humor (a bit too much), some convoluted storytelling and completely unnecessary scenes like Leia flying like Superman. Really, why? That was so silly and childish, in my opinion. Ok, this is fiction, but I also found it amazing that when Leia was saved, they just opened the door to get her in, while the vacuum of space had no impact on them whatsoever .

Cool scenes: The intro space battle was awesome, splitting the First Order spaceship was quite cool, the scene and lightsaber battle with Snoke, Rey, Kylo and the guards was very cool, Luke doing a Force hologram was quite cool, the scene when Chewbacca was about to eat a small animal was very funny, Benicio del Toros character was interesting but perhaps underused, he is a great actor.

Not so cool scenes: Too much jokes, Leia flying like Superman, Maz Kanata just appearing out of nowhere to help them felt very forced, the casino scenes were not so interesting and riding animals through a casino city felt a bit too much.

I find it to be a quite uneven movie, but still an entertaining one. But my impression at the moment is that The Force Awakens was a better and more congruent movie.

So my conclusion regarding The Last Jedi is very much like what the emperor in Amadeus had to say to Mozart about his music:
Too many notes, just cut a few and it would be perfect .


Edit 2: Oh, I have one more thing to say regarding the supposed parents of Rey. I was not convinced about what Kylo told Rey about her parents being nobodies. He could very well have been bluffing/lying to try to make Rey join him. I actually still think my Rey theory could be true. But maybe it is wishful thinking, I can't really say .

Edit 3: I forgot about another scene which I definitely would like to have seen being cut and dropped from the movie, or even better, never filmed at all: when Rose rescues Finn in the end. That was a real downer for me; to me, Star Wars should not be like a run-of-the-mill silly action movie, with silly, over-the-top heroic/dramatic stunts like that one. Please. No. More. Of. That.

 

[star apple]

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/26/us/star-wars-religion/index.html

"George Lucas, the creator of "Star Wars," says he wanted to do more than entertain the masses. He wanted to introduce young Americans to spiritual teachings though "new myths" for our globalized, pluralistic millennium.
"I see 'Star Wars' as taking all the issues that religion represents and trying to distill them down into a more modern and accessible construct," Lucas has said. "I wanted to make it so that young people would begin to ask questions about the mystery."

I really like the movie because it brings into awareness something so complex that you can't think of it well without the movies giving the mood.

Anyway. What do you want to happen in the next installment of the franchise or other movies related to it?

Well. I want the Jedi thing (or non-thing) to extend to Earth. They could write a new movie of the Jedi order (or sorta) and activities on earth. Perhaps George Lucas can look into this. What would you feel if the Jedi remnants or Siths tried to go to other planets and established themselves as a spiritual hierarchy of some sort? The movie really brings into awareness the fact our Earth alleged spiritual hierarchy are nothing but Jedi factions who pretend to being beings of pure light. Here's a passage I want to share in Externalization of the Hierachy:

"How will these Members of the Hierarchy in Their various grades appear on earth? Will They come
through the methods of ordinary birth, of childhood and maturity? Some initiates may follow this
ordinary pattern, some are already passing through it today and are in the stages of infancy and
adolescence; to them will be given a large share of the preparatory work. Some will not pass through
these relatively limiting phases, but will pass back and forth between the outer world and the world of
hierarchical endeavour; they will be sometimes present in physical bodies and sometimes not. This
method of activity will not be possible as long as the present rules of national and civilian
identification, of passports and of drastic airport and seaport inspection are required by the authorities;
such people as these "transitting initiates" would not be able to identify themselves. This form of
appearance is therefore postponed for some time. Some of the Masters will create what is called in the
language of the East the "mayavirupa"—a vehicle of expression which is built of atomic physical and
astral substance and of concrete mental substance. This They can create at will, use at will and cause to
vanish at will; Their problem is not, therefore, so acute in the matter of appearing and of reappearing as
is that of the initiate who cannot thus create to suit his purpose and his service."

No. I won't talk about this topic again. I just happened to encounter some of them and them being just Jedis described them better. Just to share food for thoughts for George Lucas future movies. He needs ideas and these are great ideas especially how to bring Luke Skywalker back to life. Peace.

 

[GTOM]

Again i'd like to note we are different, we like different parts of the same story, etc.

But i found something that has a pretty detailed analysis why people are so divided about TLJ.
(It also generally analyses the problem with MarySue characters. Not as if Gary Stues were any better of course, i never liked Superman movies, except maybe the third one with a bit character development, and tricky solution at the end.)

https://litrpgreviews.blog/2017/12/...wonder-woman-force-awakens-and-the-last-jedi/

The last part is about The Last Jedi.

 

[DennisN]

https://litrpgreviews.blog/2017/12/...wonder-woman-force-awakens-and-the-last-jedi/

The last part is about The Last Jedi.

Thanks! That was a very interesting and thorough analysis, and I can not say I disagree with it.

 

[Khashishi]

https://litrpgreviews.blog/2017/12/...wonder-woman-force-awakens-and-the-last-jedi/
https://litrpgreviews.blog/2017/12/...wonder-woman-force-awakens-and-the-last-jedi/
The last part is about The Last Jedi.

The criticisms are totally valid, but I feel like the reviewer has some impossible expectations with regard to The Last Jedi. First they criticize The Force Awakens for being too similar to the original, and then they criticize The Last Jedi for being too different. TLJ does a good job of being fresh and unexpected. If every plot point was tied together in a meaningful way, then the overall plot would be too predictable, like The Force Awakens. Yes, the other criticisms of The Last Jedi are good, especially the lack of flaws on Rey. The writers could have introduced Rey's dark side earlier on as a flaw, since this would tie into important plot points later on.

 

[NoMan2000]

The criticisms are totally valid, but I feel like the reviewer has some impossible expectations with regard to The Last Jedi. First they criticize The Force Awakens for being too similar to the original, and then they criticize The Last Jedi for being too different.

I wrote the review. Well, there's different good and different bad. TLJ is different bad. The massive expansion of powers wouldn't be bad, for example, if they were set up previously. Consider the first Star Wars.

1.) Luke learns there is something called the force.
2.) On the Millenium Falcon, Obi-Wan tells him that he can use the Force to predict the future, and hence, block blaster shots. (This gets very stupidly worked into an actual training scene in the prequels where a bunch of kids standing next to each other are waving around light sabers.) He fails to do it.
3.) This introduces us to Han Solo. Han Solo tells us that he has no use for mystical mumbo-jumbo. We see this in the Gweedo shooting and when he meets Darth Vader, he just immediately starts blasting him.
4.) Obi-wan tells him to use the force and to let go of his rational thought. Han Solo and Obi-wan are on opposite spectrums of a dilemma, does Luke trust in physical skills and computers, or does he trust in the Force?
5.) Payoff. The final destruction of the Death Star, Luke trusts the Force to guide him and destroys the death star.

Each piece had a setup and a payoff. Same thing occurs in "The Empire Strikes Back." Each skill Luke learns pays off. He learns to lift rocks, he uses this to grab his lightsaber and cut himself free. He's told that Jedi mind tricks don't work on everyone, they fail on Jaba the Hutt. He learns how to do a super jump, he does it in his fight against Darth Vader.

Now go through TLJ. Every power is not set up, it's just done so that the plot can move forward. Sometimes, it doesn't even add up. Princess Leia can force fly. We ge this from nowhere. The payoff is that she shoots Poe, then tells him the answers to what he asked the Captain about earlier. Why?

Luke can force project himself. This is done so he can stall for a few seconds and leave us with the wonderful last line, "See you around, kiddo." Why?

Everything is just "Why?" Plot McGuffins everywhere.

As I talk about in The Art of the Edit, having auters is great, they're creative people. Typically they're better than design by committee approaches. But they usually need someone to roll their ideas off of and to keep things straight. If you let most auteurs go loose, you end up with a mess of unfinished works, (Orsen Welles) or you end up with utterly incoherent stories, (Jupiter Ascending and most of the Wachowski's work in general, M. Night Shyamalan, etc.).

It seems like this is a case where no one put their foot down and what we ended up with is an incoherent mess.

 

[DennisN]

I had to post this photo from Heathrow airport yesterday (apparently May 4 is Star Wars Day...)
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/8gxfc7/heathrow_airport_this_morning_happy_sw_day/