News What happened with S. 190 and why was it not passed?

[LowlyPion]

Palin did a good job tonight and came across much much better than I was expecting her to. Both of them came across as likable competent candidates. ...

Actually about as I expected. She was still plagued by rambling incoherence at time. Her knowledge is apparently superficial and seriously lacking when it came to her understanding about VP responsibilities, about the broader arch of foreign policy, going so far as talking about something that I thought was simply stupid to put the US Embassy in Jerusalem to inflame things further.

Sadly winning points as a beauty contestant requires little more than cutsie remarks. The prize here requires a bit more horsepower than she apparently has. She offered little insight as to policy and apparently commands little more than rote command of phrasing. Beneath her hecks and goshes I think still lays a very shallow thinker.

 

[Evo]

The job of the debaters is to not look stupid and to make their running mate look good.

Says who? Certainly not people trying to find out how much Palin knows, if anything, about Federal Government and how she would handle things. She left those people empty.

And come on, she scraped bottom of the barrel with "about being a mom, about having a son in Iraq about having a special needs child". Biden got her good on that one.

 

[LowlyPion]

Shocker:

FoxNews audience sees Palin the winner 86% to 12%.

Dick Morris shooting his mouth off that the real loser is Hilary Clinton because there is a new woman in politics. And Palin is a superstar. Oh geez.

And now Lieberman saying she was fantastic.

Guiliani too.

They have recreated the Republican Convention.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm an omnivore.

That's like saying that you're a brain surgeon but do proctology on the side to get a broader perspective.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

FoxNews audience sees Palin the winner 86% to 12%.

Apparently the Fox viewers don't require actual answers to questions. What a surprise!

What they mean is that she didn't torpedo the campaign.

 

[asdfggfdsa]

Palin used the homespun sappiness and energy 'expertise' to duck out of questions.

I wasn't too impressed with her, but I have mixed opinions about how it will affect the race. I'm not sure if, on aggregate, people will name a winner. I suspect that the debate will be quickly forgotten; the presidential debates are the main event.

 

[tribdog]

Neither candidate answered the questions as they were asked, that's just the way politicians are.
Evo you are just being picky because I said you were looking foolish. I apologize. If you were to ask either one of these two "off the record" what they thought their duty was in this debate they would agree "don't look stupid and support my running mate." This isn't a written law, but it is a valuable heuristic. "try to come up with a strong sound bite and make my competitor look bad" is another one. this is the short attention span generation and image is everything. What good is knowing all the facts when an over enthusiastic yell at a pep rally is enough to lose you an election?
I don't care if a candidate doesn't know all the facts. I do care whether a candidate can understand the facts when it becomes necessary.

 

[Evo]

Neither candidate answered the questions as they were asked, that's just the way politicians are.
Evo you are just being picky because I said you were looking foolish. I apologize. If you were to ask either one of these two "off the record" what they thought their duty was in this debate they would agree "don't look stupid and support my running mate." This isn't a written law, but it is a valuable heuristic. "try to come up with a strong sound bite and make my competitor look bad" is another one. this is the short attention span generation and image is everything. What good is knowing all the facts when an over enthusiastic yell at a pep rally is enough to lose you an election?
I don't care if a candidate doesn't know all the facts. I do care whether a candidate can understand the facts when it becomes necessary.

You think I take anything you say seriously?

You missed the Joe Lieberman discussion.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1898331&postcount=32

 

[Ivan Seeking]

A few interesting observations from the CNN dynamic tracking. An even mix of Ohio Dems, Reps, and Inds, who say that they are persuadable, constantly responded to the discourse by turning a knob to + or - to indicate approval or disapproval.

Palin took dive every time she said the word "maverick". She took a hit when she mentioned Wasilla and her claim of taking-on the big oil interests. She received a huge drop from women when she used the word "rape" in regards to the coastal oil reserves. There was often a large gap between the response of men and women in both directions, but she seemed to receive greater approval from men when she rambled without saying anything. The women seemed to recognize that she didn't say anything.

I thought that all in all, Palin did extremely well based on expectations, but Biden won hands down. After the debate, the participants were asked if anyone's vote was settled as a result of the debate. Seven answered in the affirmative, with six indicating that they would vote for Obama. So this suggests that Biden did extremely well with undecided voters.

 

[LowlyPion]

The initial handshake smalltalk where she asks if she can call him "Joe" apparently was the set up for the "Tell me it ain't so Joe" line. Totally rehearsed, prepackaged propaganda. Image over content.

We've surely had 8 years too many of this kind of vapid image over substance approach to solving the Nation's problems.

 

[Astronuc]

One of several lines to which I took exception was Palin's explanation or more accurately misrepresentation of John McCain's comment about the fact the fundamentals of the economy were strong. She falsely claims he was talking about the American workforce. Such nonsense is detestable.

 

[Cyrus]

Anyone else notice the look of digust on Biden's face when she said "oh your wife was a teacher for 35 years, I'm sure that's her prize in heaven"...

He had this look behind that smile like you B****.

 

[LowlyPion]

One of several lines to which I took exception was Palin's explanation or more accurately misrepresentation of John McCain's comment about the fact the fundamentals of the economy were strong. She falsely claims he was talking about the American workforce. Such nonsense is detestable.

The Republican spin doctors have been working overtime like cats in a dirty litter box trying to bury McCain's imitation of Hoover. No matter how much litter they pile on top of it, McCain still ends up smelling like Hoover.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

How about the "he voted not to fund our troops" crap. Both Obama and Biden made it clear that McCain did the same thing because the bill had other provisions that were considered unacceptable, but the Republicans insist on using deception as an election tool.

Just more of the McSame.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I prepared for this debate as I do for all of them by getting liquored up. It gives me the false courage I need to listen to a pair of politicians slice and dice each other. And since I committed to the drinking game, the ordeal really set me free. Was I supposed to take one drink because she used watered down taboo words, or one drink for each word? Cheese and crackers, gosh darn me to heck if I know, but I took no chances on sobering up during the course of it. I had a "take out of context, misrepresent, and/or lie" detector pointed at the radio, but not long into the debate, it flashed and burned. Then the debate was over. For those people who think that the best thing about Palin is that Alaska is as far away from here as you can get, you won't like it, but she won in a walk. This was not a pop quiz, it was a photo op, and she understood that better than Biden.

 

[Astronuc]

I had a "take out of context, misrepresent, and/or lie" detector pointed at the radio, but not long into the debate, it flashed and burned.

Yeah - the political rhetoric was thick on both sides.

For some, it was a photo op, but for others it was a chance to hear some details. I was more disappointed by Biden, because I expected details. I didn't have such expectations for Palin from whom I expected quips, one-liners, empty rhetoric and propaganda - and I heard what I expected. Biden did his fair share of rhetoric as well, but he was substantive.

I would have liked to hear their views of the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 and what oversight and review there will be.

 

[BobG]

How about the "he voted not to fund our troops" crap. Both Obama and Biden made it clear that McCain did the same thing because the bill had other provisions that were considered unacceptable, but the Republicans insist on using deception as an election tool.

Just more of the McSame.

This part really impressed me with Biden. Both times he brought it up, he was careful to include the specific reason McCain voted against it. Biden engaged in a thinking person's debate and honesty isn't a liability - at least if you're good. It showed courage and a lot of confidence in his own ability to confront the other side straight up.

I'm a little surprised he didn't mention McCain's votes on veterans' benefits, though.

 

[turbo]

I'm a little surprised he didn't mention McCain's votes on veterans' benefits, though.

That might have given Palin an opening, since she has a son headed to Iraq. The only time she seemed to make any points at all it was with folksy zingers, not substance, and Biden had to watch out for traps. She got him when she asked if she could call him Joe before the debate and later nailed him with "Say it ain't so, Joe".

 

[LowlyPion]

I think the only thing that the debate accomplished was to salvage Palin's flagging reputation and show that she isn't completely the retarded beauty contestant she has suggested she might be in the past weeks of awful interview moments that she can blame on no one but herself.

Had there been any more of those moments last night, her career in politics would likely be a crater, maybe even back home in Alaska too, if the ethics charges get to the point of exposing her apparent misuse of office. At this point it looks like the McCain Palin team can limp to the finish, with a stiff upper lip, but with full knowledge of what awaits in the end - McCain into retirement and Palin to the realms of local politics in Alaska.

 

[LowlyPion]

I would have liked to hear their views of the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 and what oversight and review there will be.

I think that is a toxic subject.

McCain got too close and inexplicably tried to take credit and has been slimed by his hubris and demonstration that he played so little part except insofar as he was disrupting.

Surprisingly Obama - younger and inexperienced as McCain would like to project - played the surer hand and stayed away from the fray or grabbing at credit, stealing a march on the Republicans suggesting the 250K extension of the FDIC limit - which was adopted - revealing to my mind a better reading of the political tea leaves than the self-styled wizened legislative lion McCain.

 

[Evo]

CNN and Time "Biden is the winner"

Who Won the VP Debate?
After Sarah Palin's interview with Katie Couric, many predicted her debate with Senator Joe Biden would be another "moose in the headlights" train wreck. That wasn't the case. The Alaska governor held her own and had a clear command of the facts. But was she good enough to win?

CNN conducted a national poll and found that Senator Biden won, but that Gov. Palin "exceeded expectations." CNN also found that Palin topped Biden on likability, but Biden was viewed to be more qualified for the job.

Politico acknowledges that Palin escaped a "demolition derby moment," but claimed Biden was still the clear winner. "The financial meltdown has put a new premium on competence, and Palin did nothing to show she is ready to be in charge." Still, Palin's "folksy charm" was, for the most part, well received, and on occasion came with a "sharp edge."

Similar analysis can be found at Time.com. Joe Klein writes that while Sarah Palin "did fine," Joe Biden "demonstrated a real knowledge of the issues." Biden, in Klein's opinion, also had the most memorable moment of the debate when he spoke about his wife's death and what it was like to be a single parent. That moment, according to Klein, "was more real than anything Palin said all night."

Still, Ms. Palin's "you betcha" phrases drew a tremendous amount of search interest. In referencing the average American, she used the phrase "Joe Sixpack." The term immediately shot up in Search ("Hockey Mom" is so last month). Palin also referred to John McCain as "the maverick" several times. For viewers, this clearly inspired memories of one of Tom Cruise's greatest hits. That's right, lookups on "top gun maverick" went supersonic. Finally, Palin's mispronunciation of the word "nuclear" drew an atomic level of searches for "nuclear vs. nucular." Remember: when in doubt, just sound it out.

I guess now Palin will go back under wraps and we can proceed to the next Presidential debate.

 

[Evo]

More on the debate -

She also was allowed to do fine by Joe Biden, who never really challenged her—his criticisms were always directed at John McCain—and never exposed the obvious shallowness of her knowledge on most topics. (He must have been sorely tempted to correct Palin when she called David McKiernan, the commanding general in Afghanistan, "McLellan," but Biden was hard-wired—I imagine his debate prep was a form of electric shock therapy—not to correct her, attack her, disrespect her.)

Indeed, Sarah Palin's high-energy performance in the vice-presidential debate was the most glaring demonstration—since George W. Bush's performances in 2000—of how little you can get away with knowing and still survive one of these things, especially if the rules limit the cross-examination as severely as they did in this debate. Her relentless opacity was impressive. She refused to answer the questions where she hadn't been prepped with answers and when Biden pointed out that an early question had been on deregulation not taxes, she flashed: "I may not answer the questions the way you and the moderator want to hear, but I'm going to talk straight to the American people."

Talk straight she didn't, with only a few exceptions. She talked talking points. And when the talking points concerned areas where she didn't know diddly, she didn't talk them very convincingly. Indeed, there were times I got the distinct impression that she didn't understand the points she was talking about (on the vice president's constitutional powers, for example).

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1846997,00.html

 

[Astronuc]

The Alaska governor held her own and had a clear command of the facts.

I would say that is false. She had command of talking points.

 

[LowlyPion]

...but that Gov. Palin "exceeded expectations."

Honestly, how could she not?

When expectations include a slight chance that she might have just completely imploded, live on stage in front of 200M people - I mean a cardboard cutout with the McCain/Republican/Rove talking points being played out from a sound recorder might well have exceeded expectations.

 

[Evo]

I would say that is false. She had command of talking points.

Honestly, how could she not?

When expectations include a slight chance that she might have just completely imploded, live on stage in front of 200M people - I mean a cardboard cutout with the McCain/Republican/Rove talking points being played out from a sound recorder might well have exceeded expectations.

That was the "kind" criticisms, read the next one from Time.

 

[Astronuc]

That was the "kind" criticisms, read the next one from Time.

I'd agree with the last (third) paragraph.

Palin seems like a nice person who has been cast into an unfortunate situation.


There's nothing wrong with ambition - as long as it's realistic.

 

[Evo]

I'd agree with the last (third) paragraph.

Palin seems like a nice person who has been cast into an unfortunate situation.


There's nothing wrong with ambition - as long as it's realistic.

That was the Evo Child's take on the debate. She said that if Palin was a friend's mother (oh gosh darn it dearie, give me a hug) she'd probably like the oddball gushiness, but definitely NOT someone she'd consider competant to be VP.

 

[LowlyPion]

I heard one analysis that opined that while she may have salvaged herself, she did McCain no favors, by focusing on her experience and not defending McCain and promoting his.

Biden was very careful to represent what Obama and he would do as a team, but not Palin, who even went so far as to think to expand the powers of the VP beyond her own shallow understanding of the Constitution.

 

[Astronuc]

Unfortunately, Palin is a minor leaguer prematurely elevated to a major league team.

It would be nice to have an outsider in Washington, but she's too inexperienced and uninformed. And unfortunately McCain has surrounded himself with Washington insiders.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

That was the other one: "Joe Sixpack". I noticed that she got negative points when she used this expression. The Ohio voters didn't seem to like that or "maverick", which surprised me.

 

[LowlyPion]

Unfortunately, Palin is a minor leaguer prematurely elevated to a major league team.

That's funny. That metaphor occurred to me as well the other night. And as I can recall sometimes these 18 year old Minor League phenoms come to the bigs and out of nowhere throw a no-hitter, or get a big hit. And that's the last you ever hear from them again, because as a pitcher or a batter they didn't have the necessary foundation or fundamentals to repeat their performances with any consistency.

Palin unfortunately looks to have been a poor student in school and pays the price. Maybe even ditched her history classes, or skipped a lecture on the Constitution or Supreme Court cases, or hasn't read much on policy opinions, and has skated to her own personal fulfillment of the Peter Principle that suggests that people rise to a level higher than their competence.

The real question will be after this defeat in November and she gets shuttled back off to the long winter in Alaska how she will fare, both in her duties and to life outside the spotlight. Alaska is not exactly at the crossroads of national economic or international policy currents, and developing further relevance will likely become even more of a challenge in a state that will have a new view of her than before she left and an ethics investigation that has been shuttled aside in the pursuit of her ambition.

 

[Astronuc]

We have a small local team that feeds into the farm team that feeds into the majors. Palin is not even on a farm team.

The local stadium has been losing money and basically the taxpayers are now carrying it. This is a predominantly Republican/conservative, business oriented area. But the Democrats provide no satisfactory alternative.

 

[Art]

Palin played it much as I expected, ignoring the questions asked, delivering her memorised 'Alaska/energy' answer each time instead and trying to connect with the audience by being 'cute' and folksy.

I thought Biden did very well though I must presume he was under instructions not to be too aggressive because several times Palin lead with her chin and it would have been good to see Biden deliver a knock out blow. Perhaps his advisers thought a tactic like that might win him the battle but lose the war??

As the debate went on and Palin ran out of permutations to her stock answer she began to revert to type and ramble pretty much incoherently such as

I'm not one to attribute every man - activity of man to the changes in the climate," she said.

"There is something to be said also for man's activities, but also for the cyclical temperature changes on our planet... What I want to argue about is, how are we going to get there to positively affect the impacts?"

I wish I could talk England like what she can :)

The BBC say CNN's instapoll of undecideds gave it to Biden 51% - 36% and CBS undecideds gave it to Biden 46% - 21%.

As it is the undecideds both parties were trying to win over it looks like a decisive victory for the Obama campaign team.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Fifty-one percent of those polled thought Biden did the best job in Thursday night's debate, while 36 percent thought Palin did the best job.

...But on the question of the candidates' qualifications to assume the presidency, 87 percent of the people polled said Biden is qualified while only 42 percent said Palin is qualified...

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/02/poll-biden-wins-debate-palin-exceeds-expectations/

 

[LowlyPion]

But ... but ... but FoxNews says their poll showed Palin won 86% to 12%.

That seems to be a bit beyond a reasonable margin for error. I'm wondering if their methods aren't a little flawed?

 

[Art]

But ... but ... but FoxNews says their poll showed Palin won 86% to 12%.

That seems to be a bit beyond a reasonable margin for error. I'm wondering if their methods aren't a little flawed?

FoxNews should worry. It seems 12% of their hand-picked die-hard Republicans have switched allegiance following the debate

 

[Cyrus]

Any news on how this has shifted the overall national poll numbers?

 

[Evo]

But ... but ... but FoxNews says their poll showed Palin won 86% to 12%.

That seems to be a bit beyond a reasonable margin for error. I'm wondering if their methods aren't a little flawed?

Not considering that they only polled the people in the Fox newsroom and McCain's campaign staff.

 

[LowlyPion]

Any news on how this has shifted the overall national poll numbers?

Gallup numbers today did not include polling from after the debate. But tomorrow's numbers will begin to.

Right now it's showing 49% Obama - 42% McCain

 

[Cyrus]

It must be humiliating to publicly go before the country and not have any clue what you're talking about.

I mean, honestly. Does she not feel just a *little* stupid standing there making stuff up?

 

[LowlyPion]

It must be humiliating to publicly go before the country and not have any clue what you're talking about.

I mean, honestly. Does she not feel just a *little* stupid standing there making stuff up?

Things are working out great for her ... maybe.

She gets hours of face time with 10's of millions of people. Her exposure will be something she can build off of. And it's not costing her anything.

McCain on the other hand ... this is it. In 4 years ... who knows what his health or electability will be. I doubt he will be around much after losing. He may not even stand in 2010 for the Senate. It's likely his end of the road.

The maybe comes from what may happen back in Alaska. Can she buckle back down now? Can she escape the ethics damage and the revelations of her meanness and hang on in the office there? Or will she move to take over Ted Stevens seat if he goes to jail and grab at a broader national stage in the Senate? With the Democrats in office, there likely won't be any appointed positions to fatten her resume with.

 

[LowlyPion]

I see it reported by MSNBC that despite the euphoria at how well Palin allegedly did, and the McCain complaints the News Media filtered her message, she is not scheduled to be on ANY TV news show for live interviews, this weekend or until the election.

This looks like this is it for her ever answering any more questions.

So much for how well they really think she handled herself and can handle herself.

 

[Cyrus]

You betcha. I don't know LowlyPion, Ill get back to ya. :Wink:

pew pew pew pew...DING

 

[Astronuc]

So much for how well they really think she handled herself . . .

I would imagine the McCain handlers want the public to retain that image, so they won't allow Palin to go public. I'm waiting to see if there is a wedding (Bristol and her dude) just before the election.

 

[OmCheeto]

That was the other one: "Joe Sixpack". I noticed that she got negative points when she used this expression. The Ohio voters didn't seem to like that or "maverick", which surprised me.

Perhaps they were mad because they were only one square away from winning, and those weren't the phrases they were looking for...

http://www.palinbingo.com/"

Things are working out great for her ... maybe.

She gets hours of face time with 10's of millions of people. Her exposure will be something she can build off of. And it's not costing her anything.

Someone today told me that someone quoted her word for word some past Saturday, and everyone thought it was funny. Perhaps after the election, she can quote Tina Fey and be a new regular on SNL. Eh?

btw, has anyone nicknamed her Sarah Sixpack yet?

hmmmm...

I guess that was too easy. The http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...10/02/AR2008100204250.html?hpid=opinionsbox1" had the scoop on the obvious.

 

[lisab]

btw, has anyone nicknamed her Sarah Sixpack yet?

I prefer "Caribou Barbie"...

...wish I could claim the term, but a guy at work was using it...

 

[LowlyPion]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...10/02/AR2008100204250.html?hpid=opinionsbox1" had the scoop on the obvious.

From the Washington Post:

"Nice to meet you," Palin told Joe Biden. "Hey, can I call you Joe?"

"You can call me Joe," the senator obliged.

"Okay, thanks," she said brightly.

I am absolutely convinced that this was her setup up for the "Tell me it ain't so Joe" line.

Everything is so practiced with these people, I am quite certain she set that up so that she would not later be charged with being disrespectful of a US Senator that had called her Governor throughout the evening.

If only they would have applied that kind of interest to doing the Nation's business rather than crafting ways to retain power through deception and guile. In their valuing form over content. Image over policy.

 

[lisab]

From the Washington Post:

I am absolutely convinced that this was her setup up for the "Tell me it ain't so Joe" line.

Everything is so practiced with these people, I am quite certain she set that up so that she would not later be charged with being disrespectful of a US Senator that had called her Governor throughout the evening.

If only they would have applied that kind of interest to doing the Nation's business rather than crafting ways to retain power through deception and guile. In their valuing form over content. Image over policy.

Oh my, that's the only explanation for that strangely timed "Can I call you Joe?" comment.

BTW, I didn't get the winking thing...I'm looking for an actual leader, not a cheer leader.

 

[LowlyPion]

Oh my, that's the only explanation for that strangely timed "Can I call you Joe?" comment.

BTW, I didn't get the winking thing...I'm looking for an actual leader, not a cheer leader.

It was just too eager for my ear. Like she had so many bases that had to be touched in her talent section of the competition.

Fortunately for Biden they skipped the swim suit part of the program.

 

[mheslep]

For example - She still misrepresents McCain on the current financial crisis. McCain did not seen any of this coming!

“If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole,”

If that is not a warning there is no such thing. Did he claim to see the entire financial crisis rolling out the way it has? No, and he stated that in the interview with the New Hampshire paper [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTmIJ5Aag2Q"], which pfact can't bother to check. Pfact also ignores very similar warnings about the GSEs from both Greenspan and Bernanke in years past, and in fact the author contradicts both fed chairs with its own reinvention of the the cause.

First of all, congressional efforts to increase oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac extend back to the early 1990s, making McCain a latecomer to the debate. The regulatory efforts proved unsuccessful because of Congress’ complicated relationship with the firms, whose dominance in the home financing market makes their stability critical to the economy.

So what? Fannie/Freddie were a not significant threat in the early 90s because at that point they only held/guaranteed http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2008/07/gse_to_gdp_jul_08.gif" . Then, by 2003, as Greenspan stated they had become a threat.

The extent of the problems was not yet fully known, and it’s a leap of faith to suggest that regulators granted expanded power would have noticed a deterioration in Fannie and Freddie’s loan portfolios soon enough and would have sounded an alarm.

There was no need to do any close inspections of their books. It was well known that the main economic threat was that their portfollio as of 2000 was too large and undercapitalized. Period. Greenspan said so several times and later so did Bernanke. S.190, unlike the other bills before and after that only pretended to do anything, explicitly gave the regulators power to require more capital. S.190 would have immediately allowed regulators to force Freddie/Fannie to shrink, effectively putting on the brakes on the mortage market. No Fannie/Freddie, no buyer that could package Countrywide risky mortgages They knew it and put on a full court lobbying press to stop it.

We give McCain some credit for weighing in on problems surrounding Fannie Mae, even though he got involved after a comprehensive government report issued a loud alarm to anyone watching.

Anyone did not include Dodd, Frank, Waxman, Schumer telling 'anyone' listening that the report was alarmist, Fred/Fan were 'sound', and were critical to minority and affordable housing, implying the motives of anyone calling for GSE shrinkage were suspect.

Barack Obama’s campaign responded to McCain’s remarks by labeling his desire for tougher oversight a myth. Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor noted ...

Good grief. How is some Obama response relevant to an objective fact check on a McCain statements about the GSEs? Where is the response from Elvis?