I What if a scientific theory is not testable?

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  • #51
ZapperZ said:
Applying small-angle approximation to the pendulum when the angle of oscillation isn't small also produces "contradictory" result!

Yes, I know, which is why I called both solutions "different".

The Newtonian result differs because the approximation is no longer as accurate!

It doesn't matter why it differs, only that it differs.
 
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  • #52
ZapperZ said:
Applying small-angle approximation to the pendulum when the angle of oscillation isn't small also produces "contradictory" result!
Any proper textbook on dynamical systems shows how small angle approximations are essentially pathological mathematical methods regardless of the smallness of the angle. The even better textbooks then also go on to demonstrate how analyses based on perturbation theory tend to result in fundamentally mathematically inconsistent equations when directly compared to the exact equations, as well as go on to show the mathematical breakdown of perturbation theory itself.
 
  • #53
Auto-Didact said:
Any proper textbook on dynamical systems shows how small angle approximations are essentially pathological mathematical methods regardless of the smallness of the angle. The even better textbooks then also go on to demonstrate how analyses based on perturbation theory tend to result in fundamentally mathematically inconsistent equations when directly compared to the exact equations, as well as go on to show the mathematical breakdown of perturbation theory itself.

This is all meaningless. Unless you can show me explicitly why making a small-angle approximation is mathematically faulty, and that the full solution itself does not converge to the small-angle approximation, then what you have described are human personal preference.

Zz.
 
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  • #54
ZapperZ said:
This is all meaningless. Unless you can show me explicitly why making a small-angle approximation is mathematically faulty, and that the full solution itself does not converge to the small-angle approximation, then what you have described are human personal preference.

Zz.
The reason for the mathematical faultyness of not only the small angle approximation, but practically all approximation techniques is essentially that they are used in the following context: they are attempts to linearize a nonlinear system of equations in order to find a solution, for example by replacing a second order equation by a first order equation which is easier to solve.

In general, second order equations cannot be reduced to first order equations, because the former requires two inputs (e.g. ##x## and ##\dot{x}##) while the latter only requires one input (which if linearly expanded would determine the second). All of this becomes immediately apparent when the state space of a system is checked using stability analysis methods from bifurcation theory. In fact, non-perturbative analysis was created for this very reason.
 
  • #55
Auto-Didact said:
Any proper textbook on dynamical systems shows how small angle approximations are essentially pathological mathematical methods regardless of the smallness of the angle. The even better textbooks then also go on to demonstrate how analyses based on perturbation theory tend to result in fundamentally mathematically inconsistent equations when directly compared to the exact equations, as well as go on to show the mathematical breakdown of perturbation theory itself.

Please give specific references to these textbooks you speak of.
 
  • #56
PeterDonis said:
Please give specific references to these textbooks you speak of.
My personal favourite:
Strogatz, S. (1994). Nonlinear dynamics and chaos: with applications to physics, biology, chemistry, and engineering (studies in nonlinearity).
 
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  • #57
DrChinese said:
Going back to the OP: Theories are intended to be useful models of some group of patterns (and pattern exceptions). If you specify that there is no experimental confirmation possible for a new theory, then you are also saying that it provides NO new predictive power. It therefore lacks any utility. I would call such a theory "ad hoc".
Then as I understand it one could call the string theory "ad hoc", at least from the current point of view.
 
  • #58
timmdeeg said:
Can we ever trust a scientific theory which is self-consistent but not testable?
Generally speaking, I'd say a definite no to that.

More specifically, I'd say since there a degrees of "testable", there are also quite naturally degrees of "trust" in scientific theories, e.g.
  • Experimentally verified physics is very testable, and is thus very trustworthy.
  • There are various theoretical concepts that are expected from established theories, but are, or have been considered hard to observe (e.g. gravitational waves which now have been detected).
  • There are leading hypotheses to observed phenomena (e.g. galaxy rotations) that still hasn't been observed (e.g. dark matter).
  • And then there are various ideas that are not yet uniquely associated with any known observed phenomena (e.g. string theory, loop quantum gravity).
 
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  • #59
DennisN said:
Generally speaking, I'd say a definite no to that.

More specifically, I'd say since there a degrees of "testable", there are also quite naturally degrees of "trust" in scientific theories, e.g.
Whereby your "no" seems to imply "not testable in principle", as @PeterDonis has pointed out in post #4.

But I'm still not sure what "in principle" means.
Supposed a theory of quantum gravity predicts properties of the state of matter in the Planck regime or in a black hole. Can we test these predictions "in principle"? Wouldn't this require a particle accelerator of the size of the milky way. Or do we say well we can't exclude that a yet unknown future technology could test Planckian signatures somehow.
But then it's still different regarding the state of matter in the interior of a black hole, no chance.
DennisN said:
And then there are various ideas that are not yet uniquely associated with any known observed phenomena (e.g. string theory, loop quantum gravity).
There seem to be 5 consistent superstring theories. The superstring theory describes about ##10^{500}## vacuum states. Do we have any reason to believe that these are testable in principle? If not why are so many talented physicists searching in this field?
 
  • #60
timmdeeg said:
then it's still different regarding the state of matter in the interior of a black hole, no chance

Yes, that's the difference.
 
  • #61
timmdeeg said:
[. . . ]

Can we ever trust a scientific theory which is self-consistent but not testable?

[ . . . ]

Theory: In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.
 
  • #62
Mary Conrads Sanburn said:
Theory: In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.
And to add one more detail, that predicts falsifiable test results.
 
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  • #63
My answer may be a little contentious, but my view is that while the mathematics in a theory must not have clear mistakes, mathematics does not make physics; it merely describes it. A mathematical equation is simply a statement in a somewhat condensed form, thus F = ma simply says the force on an object is given by its mass multiplied by the perceived acceleration. That applies always, although in fairness the statement relating to the Lagrangian in the standard model of particle physics would be somewhat cumbersome. However, the point I am trying to make is truth is not determined by whether the mathematics are consistent, but whether they are correct physically.

If a theory makes predictions, then it is falsifiable, although there is the caveat that theory may make a prediction of what happens, but concede that there are additional effects, i.e. the theory gives, say, an expectation result that should follow statistically if enough samples are taken, or alternatively, it might be unfalsifiable because it says this is what happens first but something else might follow or some overlooked effect might apply additionally. In each case, a result that does not fit might not falsify. Quantum mechanics gives a good example of the first. If I predict the position of one electron fired at two slits, the Uncertainty Principle and the diffraction effects will mean I cannot predict where that electron will be, but the physics are perfectly sound. For the second, I can have an equation that is correct for the trajectory of an arrow, but if you overlook the wind, an erroneous landing cannot falsify Newtonian dynamics.

Finally, there is another aspect. I have a theory relating to planetary formation and biogenesis, and I have made over seventy predictions. Some of them are conditional, because they are the "expectation" sort, but in general they all have problems of not being able to be applied because so far you cannot carry most of them out. For example, one of them predicts what you will find if you go and dig reasonably deeply at the bottom of Hellas Planitia on Mars. I regard that as a useful prediction that justifies what led to it being a theory. Obviously, it may not be correct, but that is irrelevant to whether it is a theory. One day it may be tested. However, if the theory is incapable of making any prediction that could be tested, or will not lead to something that could be tested I regard it as not a theory, but more fiction.
 
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