What is a distinct phase change?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of distinct phase changes in substances, particularly in the context of thermodynamics and phase transitions. Participants explore definitions, properties associated with phases, and the graphical representation of these changes, focusing on first-order phase transitions and the behavior of density during such transitions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that a distinct phase change occurs when there is a discontinuity in properties such as density.
  • Others question how density can be discontinuous, prompting further exploration of the relationship between phases, specifically liquid and gas.
  • A participant describes first-order phase transitions, noting that during such transitions, properties like density change discontinuously, indicating the presence of distinct phases.
  • There is a request for clarification on how to graphically represent discontinuities in properties, with references to thermodynamic graphs.
  • Some participants propose plotting molar volume as a function of temperature to illustrate discontinuities, while others express uncertainty about obtaining molar volume values for such plots.
  • A later reply mentions that specific volume could also be used for plotting, and that experimental data is typically required for accurate representations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the notion that distinct phase changes involve discontinuities in properties like density. However, there is no consensus on the best methods for graphical representation or the specific values needed for plotting.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of phases and the need for experimental data to accurately plot properties. There are unresolved questions regarding the relationship between molar volume and specific volume in the context of phase transitions.

mech-eng
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"At pressures above the critical pressure, there is not a distinct phase change
process. Instead, the specific volume of the substance continually increases, and at all times there is only one phase present."

What does "distinct phase change" mean here? First to understand this I should correctly define the phase

1. Phase is a state of substances ( I am not sure they should be pure or not) having two indipendent property.
2. Every phase of pure substance have different indipendent property for that substance.

Thank you.
 
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Distinct phases means that there is something that is discontinuous, such as density.
 
DrClaude said:
Distinct phases means that there is something that is discontinuous, such as density.

Now can you explain how density can be discontinous?

Thank you.
 
mech-eng said:
Now can you explain how density can be discontinous?
Think liquid and gas.
 
DrClaude said:
Think liquid and gas.

I cannot get the relationship being liquid or gas and discontinuity of density.

Thank you.
 
In a first-order phase transition the substance undergoing the transition has some characteristic property than changes discontinuously. In the case of a liquid becoming a gas, the density is different for the liquid phase and the gas phase. Therefore, this is a distinct phase change: as the phase transformation is happening, there are clearly two distinct phases present, that you can characterize by their densities.
 
DrClaude said:
Distinct phases means that there is something that is discontinuous, such as density.

How could this situation be represented graphically? Is the discontinuity for properties exactly the same for what we learned in discontinuity of functions ie broken graphs? I don't remember whether or not I came up with such graphs in thermodynamics textbooks.

Thank you.
 
mech-eng said:
How could this situation be represented graphically? Is the discontinuity for properties exactly the same for what we learned in discontinuity of functions ie broken graphs? I don't remember whether or not I came up with such graphs in thermodynamics textbooks.

Thank you.

Just plot molar volume as a function of temperature, keeping pressure constant, and you'll get a discontinuous graph at least if the system contains only one pure chemical substance and the conditions are below the critical point.

When approaching the critical point, the discontinuity becomes smaller, and close enough to criticality you can't tell the difference between the liquid and gaseous phases anymore.
 
  • #10
hilbert2 said:
Just plot molar volume as a function of temperature, keeping pressure constant, and you'll get a discontinuous graph at least if the system contains only one pure chemical substance and the conditions are below the critical point.

When approaching the critical point, the discontinuity becomes smaller, and close enough to criticality you can't tell the difference between the liquid and gaseous phases anymore.

1. Why they should be molar volume instead of specific volumes?

2. I do not know how I can plot molar volumes as a function of temperature, keeping pressure constant. Because I do not have ready molar volume values.

Thank you.
 
  • #11
It can just as well be the specific volume. That kind of plots usually have to be made from exp. data, even though more advanced equations of state such as Redlich-Kwong can model phase transitions to some extent.
 

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