What is the difference between these two works ?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the differences between mechanical work as described in the work-energy theorem and thermodynamic work as outlined in the first law of thermodynamics. Participants explore the definitions, contexts, and applications of these two concepts in physics.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that the work in the work-energy theorem relates to changes in kinetic energy and is represented as ΔK = ∑W_i, while thermodynamic work in the first law is represented as ΔU = Q + W, where W is the work done on the system.
  • Another participant introduces the overall energy balance equation dPE + dKE + dU = Q - W, highlighting that certain assumptions must be made for the work-energy theorem to apply, such as zero changes in potential and internal energy.
  • A different participant argues that the two works are fundamentally different, providing a mathematical perspective that relates internal energy to mechanical work through the equation dU = TdS - PdV + ∑μ dN, suggesting that mechanical work can be expressed as -PdV.
  • One participant references an external FAQ for additional context on the topic, indicating that there may be broader discussions available on related concepts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between the two types of work, with some suggesting they are closely related while others assert they are fundamentally different. The discussion remains unresolved regarding a clear criterion to distinguish between the two works.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention specific conditions under which the equations apply, such as assumptions about energy changes and system states, but these conditions are not universally agreed upon.

variation
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Some examples in textbook make me confused when these two works are discussed at the same time.

One of the works is the (mechanical) work in work-energy theorem:

[tex] \Delta K = \sum_iW_i,[/tex]

where [tex]K[/tex] is the kinetic energy and [tex]W_i[/tex] was the work done by the [tex]i[/tex]-th force.

The other is the (thermodynamical) work in the first law of thermodynamics:

[tex] \Delta U = Q + W,[/tex]

where [tex]U[/tex] is the internal energy of the system, [tex]Q[/tex] is the heat transfered, and [tex]W[/tex] is the work done on the system by surroundings.

Are the two works the same when we want to use work-energy theorem and the first law of thermodynamics at the same time?

Can anyone give some criterion to distinguish these two works ?

Thank you .
 
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Hi Variation:

You might want to refer to the overall energy balance equation:

dPE + dKE + dU = Q - W

Now the first equation have certain assumptions, that the change in potential energy is zero (such as it is on a flat surface) and the change in internal energy is zero (no state changes, or temperature and pressure changes). This is your classic pulling a block on a flat surface problem.

The second equation, you have thermodynamic work. You have state changes, and this assumes that no mechanical energy, potential energy or kinetic energy. So basically on a flat surface and not moving. A classic problem is the cylinder with the piston. You put it near the flame and it would expand. Flame provides heat (Q) and expansion is work (W)

I hope this helps.
 
This two works are barely the same. Let me give you the simplest example. Internal energy is
[tex]U = U(S, V, N)[/tex]
with
[tex]dU = TdS - PdV + \sum \mu dN[/tex]
[tex]-PdV = dW[/tex]
being the elementary mechanical work.
You get precisely the same elementary work with mechanics of continuous media (consider the simplest case of a diagonal stress tensor [tex]\sigma_{ij} = -P \delta_{ij}[/tex]).
 
Thank you all.
 

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