What is the expression for work done in a perpendicular collision?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the expression for work done in the context of a perpendicular collision, exploring the relationship between force, displacement, and the dot product in physics. Participants examine both theoretical and experimental perspectives on how work is defined and perceived in real-life scenarios.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that traditional definitions of work as the product of force and displacement do not account for the dot product, leading to the conclusion that work done is zero when force and displacement are perpendicular.
  • Another participant questions the nature of force that could cause displacement at right angles to its line of action, suggesting a deeper inquiry into the mechanics involved.
  • A participant describes an experiment involving two pencils to illustrate that displacement can occur even when the force is applied perpendicularly, challenging the notion that work done must be zero in such cases.
  • Further elaboration on the experiment indicates that collisions can result in both linear and angular reactions, with the nature of the impact affecting the force and resulting displacement.
  • It is suggested that if a force is always perpendicular to an object's path, the object's speed remains constant while only its direction changes, exemplified by steering a car.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the dot product in defining work done, with some supporting traditional definitions while others challenge them based on experimental observations. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the validity of the dot product in this context.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the limitations of traditional definitions of work, particularly in cases involving perpendicular forces and displacements. The discussion reflects a dependence on specific definitions and interpretations of physical concepts.

Alpharup
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I have studied in my lower grades that work(w) done or energy is the product of force(f) and displacement(s).Till now I was thinking that this was true. I was not taught that it was the dot product of force and displacement. according to this definition, the work done when the force and displacement are mutually perpendicular to each other is zero. Now my question is whether this expression is based on real life experiences or was it designed to give only the dot product?
 
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Hello sharan,

Since you have reached the dot product, you must have encountered a wide variety of physics by now.

So you might like to ask yourself

What sort of 'force' is there that can cause a displacement at right angles to its line of action?
 
Yes I do ask. I conducted a small experiment. I placed two pencils at right angles to each other. The pencils were not in contact and they were kept a few centimeters apart. I measured the diameter of the pencils and kept them in such a way that when I pushed one of the pencil it touched the other at the end. After keeping a few distance apart I pushed one of the pencils towards the other in such a way that it hit the other pencil's end perpendicularly. There was little displacement in the other pencil which was at rest perpendicular to the force of pencil in motion. Here displacement was possible due to the work done. So the pencil which had a certain force caused displacement in the other pencil. So explain me now how work done satisfies dot product? If dot product was to be real the work done must be zero. Then how would it have caused displacement?
 
sharan swarup said:
After keeping a few distance apart I pushed one of the pencils towards the other in such a way that it hit the other pencil's end perpendicularly.
That type of collision will result in both linear and angular reactions. The linear reaction is a function of the force times distance, regardless if the pencil is hit at the end or at the middle. The difference is that the struck pencils linear inertia is less if struck at the end instead of the middle, so the force involved is less.

If a force is always oriented so it's perpendicular to the path of an object, the speed will remain constant and only the direction will change. One common example of this would be steering a car to make it turn.
 

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