What is the Lorentz invariance of flux in the stress-energy tensor?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Lorentz invariance of flux as described in the context of the stress-energy tensor in relativistic physics. Participants explore the definitions and implications of the stress-energy tensor, its components, and how they relate to Lorentz covariance, particularly in terms of flux and 4-vectors.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the Lorentz invariance of the definition of the stress-energy tensor, suggesting that the concept of "rate" is not Lorentz invariant due to its dependence on time.
  • Another participant argues that the stress-energy tensor itself is Lorentz-covariant, implying that individual components do not need to be invariant.
  • Some participants clarify that the components of the stress-energy tensor do not need to be invariant, but the vector formed from them should be Lorentz covariant.
  • A later reply emphasizes that the contraction of the stress-energy tensor with a specific 4-vector is what ensures Lorentz covariance, not the individual components themselves.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of the components of a tensor in a given frame, with one participant explaining that they are contractions with basis vectors, which can vary between frames.
  • Another participant disputes the claim that the stress-energy tensor is constructed solely from scalars and vectors, suggesting that the construction involves more complexity.
  • One participant expresses confusion about the validity of the 4-current density as a 4-vector, questioning the scalar nature of the rate of charge passing through a surface.
  • Another participant introduces a practical example involving 2-dimensional space-time diagrams for an ideal gas, discussing the flow of energy and momentum as represented in the stress-energy tensor.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the Lorentz invariance of the stress-energy tensor and its components. There is no consensus on whether the definition provided is adequate or if it accurately reflects the properties of the tensor in relation to Lorentz covariance.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the complexity of defining flux in terms of the stress-energy tensor, noting that the definitions may depend on the specific context and assumptions made about the quantities involved.

dEdt
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According to Wikipedia,
The stress–energy tensor is defined as the tensor T^{\alpha \beta} of rank two that gives the flux of the \alphath component of the momentum vector across a surface with constant x^\beta coordinate.

This definition doesn't sit well with me. Flux is defined as the rate that something passes through an infinitesimal surface, divided by the infinitesimal area of that surface. For example, the current flux (or current density), when dotted with a unit vector, gives the rate that charge passes through an infinitesimal surface with that unit vector, divided by the infinitesimal area.

But "rate" is not Lorentz invariant, because it involves time which is relative. So the definition above seems to be non-Lorentz invariant (or covariant or whatever). Shouldn't this be a problem?
 
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Not it isn't a problem. ##T^{\mu\nu}## is itself Lorentz-covariant and that's all that matters. There's no need for the individual components to be Lorentz-invariant. Does it bother you that the components of the 4-momentum ##p^{\mu}## aren't Lorentz-invariant even though ##p^{\mu}## is itself Lorentz-covariant?
 
The components of T^{\alpha \beta} don't need to be invariant, as you point out. The vector (T^{0 \beta},T^{1 \beta},T^{2 \beta},T^{3 \beta}), on the other hand, should be Lorentz covariant. But the above definition ensures that it isn't, because this "vector" equals a 4-vector (the amount of 4-momentum passing through a given surface) divided by dt, which isn't a scalar.
 
Agreed. I dispute the claim that the stress-energy tensor, at least in the definition above, is constructed exclusively out of scalars and vectors.
 
dEdt said:
The components of T^{\alpha \beta} don't need to be invariant, as you point out. The vector (T^{0 \beta},T^{1 \beta},T^{2 \beta},T^{3 \beta}), on the other hand, should be Lorentz covariant.

Not quite. What will be Lorentz covariant is the contraction of the stress-energy tensor with some specific 4-vector. If we call the 4-vector (actually a covector in this case, since you wrote the SET with upper indexes) ##u_{\beta}##, then what will be Lorentz covariant is the 4-vector ##t^{\alpha}## given by

$$
t^{\alpha} = T^{\alpha \beta} u_{\beta}
$$

If you Lorentz transform ##t^{\alpha}##, it transforms like a 4-vector. But if you write out the detailed expression for ##t^{\alpha}##, the factors ##T^{\alpha \beta}## in that expression won't transform individually like a 4-vector; only their products with the appropriate (transformed) components of ##u_{\beta}## will.

In fact, generalizing this observation makes clear what the "components" of a tensor in a given frame actually are; they are contractions of the tensor with the appropriate basis vectors of that frame. So if I pick a particular frame, the component ##T^{12}##, say, in that frame, really means the contraction ##T^{\alpha \beta} \left( \hat{e}_1 \right)_{\alpha} \left( \hat{e}_2 \right)_{\beta}##, where ##\hat{e}_1## and ##\hat{e}_2## are the frame's basis vectors in the "1" and "2" directions. This contraction does indeed describe the flow of "1" momentum across a surface of constant "2" coordinate *in that frame*; and since it's a contraction, it's a Lorentz scalar, so I could compute it, in principle, in any frame, as long as I have expressions, in the frame I'm computing in, for the ##\hat{e}_1## and ##\hat{e}_1## basis vectors of the frame I'm contracting with the tensor.

Changing frames means changing basis vectors, which means if I now want to compute ##T'^{12}## in a new, primed frame, I need to compute a *different* contraction, ##T^{\alpha \beta} \left( \hat{e'}_1 \right)_{\alpha} \left( \hat{e'}_2 \right)_{\beta}##, using the different basis vectors of the new, primed frame. This will also be a Lorentz scalar, but a *different* Lorentz scalar, because I contracted the tensor with different vectors.
 
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dEdt said:
Agreed. I dispute the claim that the stress-energy tensor, at least in the definition above, is constructed exclusively out of scalars and vectors.

I think you misunderstood me. If we have an observer O with 4-velocity ##u^{\mu}## then ##j^{\mu} := T^{\mu}{}{}_{\nu}u^{\nu}## will be Lorentz-covariant because it's built from the contracted indices of a 4-tensor and a 4-vector. This physically corresponds to the energy-momentum density of the matter field represented by ##T^{\mu\nu}## as measured by O.
 
PeterDonis said:
... then what will be Lorentz covariant is the 4-vector ##t^{\alpha}## given by

$$
t^{\alpha} = T^{\alpha \beta} u_{\beta}
$$

Yes, of course you're correct. That was a silly mistake on my part.
WannabeNewton said:
I think you misunderstood me. If we have an observer O with 4-velocity ##u^{\mu}## then ##j^{\mu} := T^{\mu}{}{}_{\nu}u^{\nu}## will be Lorentz-covariant because it's built from the contracted indices of a 4-tensor and a 4-vector. This physically corresponds to the energy-momentum density of the matter field represented by ##T^{\mu\nu}## as measured by O.

What you're saying makes much more sense now.

Basically, my question reduces to this: j^{\mu} := T^{\mu}{}{}_{\nu}u^{\nu} has to be a 4-vector, because that's how tensors work. But we're also defining j^{\mu} as "the flux of the \alphath component of the momentum vector across a surface" (equating the two j^{\mu}s allows us to find T^{\mu}_{\nu}), and I'm surprised this second definition makes a 4-vector as well, as it must if our definition of the stress energy tensor is consistent.
 
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Are you familiar with the 4-current density ##j^{\mu}## from electromagnetism? (Sorry about using the same symbol but it's standard notation)

Do you understand why this is a valid 4-vector? If so, the case with the energy-momentum tensor is entirely analogous.
 
  • #10
Actually, while I am familiar with the 4-current density I don't understand why it's a valid 4-vector.

The 4-current density ##j_\mu## (I prefer treating it as a dual vector) is defined such that if ##n^\mu## is unit vector, then ##j_\mu n^\mu = \textrm{rate that charge passes through an infinitesimal surface with unit vector }n^\mu \textrm{ divided by }\delta A##. It isn't intuitively obvious that the right hand side of this equation is a scalar.
 
  • #11
This looks like a good spot to post a few of the diagrams I've been working on:

I am drawing 2-d space-time diagrams for a 2-d ideal gas, made up of collisionless particles. You can think of the diagram as one line per particle, or a scaled diagram as one line per n particles. A real gas would have velocities in random directions, but one can "group" the flows of the same velocity into a sub-diagram, compute the contribution of the sub-diagram to the total flow, then add all the sub-flows together to get the total flow.

(Sorry if this isn't clear - it invites a few new diagrams, but I'm not sure when I'll have time to get around to them).

This ideal gas has a 2-d stress energy tensor, with 4 components:

##T^{00}## the flow of energy in the t-direction, ##T^{01}##, the flow of energy in the x-direction, ## T^{10}##, the flow of momentum in the t-directoin, and ## T^{11}##, the flow of momentum in the x direciton.One can add collisions into gas without much difficulty if they happen at a point, but getting into that would be a needless distraction at this point.

Each particle can be assumed to carry some momentum and energy along its worldine.

Let's start with the flow of "stuff" in the t direction:

As you'll see the "rate" of flow in the t direction is the amount of stuff normalized to a unit length, not a unit time. So the flows in the t-direction are spatial densities - they aren't rates. To address an objection previously raised.

"Stuff" is deliberately vague. It could be the flow of worldlines themselves (which makes up the number-flux 4-vector)

For more on the number-flux 4-vector see http://web.mit.edu/edbert/GR/gr2b.pdf

The flow of "stuff" can also be the flow of energy and momentum, which is what we need for the stress-energy tensor. Each particle in the diagram is assumed to have a certain momentum and energy, to get the flow of energy you multiply the flow of worldlines by the energy per woldline, to get the flow of momentum y ou multiply the flow of worldlines by the momentum per worldline.

attachment.php?attachmentid=65501&d=1389397280.png


Next up - flows in the "x" direction.

attachment.php?attachmentid=65728&d=1389931424%20.png


When you do a Lorentz transform, the relevant quantities are the flow of "stuff" in the t' direction, and the x' direction. These directions are not the same as the t and x direction. So you have to transform the flows. Additionally, if you are computing flows of energy and momentum for the stress-energy tensor, you need to transform the energy and momentum relativistically, as well as the flows.

I had another diagram that illustrated how to transform the flows, but it appears to have fallen victim to a power outage. Basically, though, if you know the flows in the t and x directions, a linear combination of the two will give you the flows in the t' and x' directions, as long as your flows are conserved flows.
 

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