What is the role of acceptance in understanding slippery concepts?

[wuliheron]

Many have pointed out here that obviously we do indeed exist in some sense, and that it is difficult if not impossible to discuss nonexistence, the origin of existence, etc. Along these same lines of reasoning, rejection can be seen as being predicated on acceptance. Unless we accept something we cannot reject anything. As with nonexistence, acceptance can be a slippery subject to discuss. However, it could also be possibly the only way to understand these other slippery concepts.

. Acceptance

Harmony is only in following the Way.
The Way of Happiness is
Without form or quality,
But expresses all forms and qualities;
The Way is hidden and implicate,
But expresses all of nature;
The Way is unchanging,
But expresses all motion.
Beneath sensation and memory
The Way is the source
Of all the world.
How can I understand the source of the world?
By accepting.

 

[BoulderHead]

I'm lousy with directions...

...which Way do I go?

Acceptance feels much to me like giving up. There is a part of me that just will not let me feel at ease until I have the answer for the great mystery of existence. Yet I know I will never have the answer...

Somewhere, in the back of mind, is a feeling of despair.

 

[Royce]

I really don't what to steal any of wuli's thunder, but acceptance is giving up. It is giving up trying, wrestling and letting it happen. We can't know the secret, paradox, of existence until we accept our existence and the existence of everything else including that which we can never know. In other words we must first exist to know existence. When we accept that we can not know and quit fighting it then in repose and harmony we will come to know. Not all at once but indicernable step by step we will come to know. Each step will lead us to the next and soon it will no longer concern us that we do not know and can not know. Then someday we will realize that we do know and have always known and we will laugh at how simple and wonderful and beautiful it is and at how silly we were to struggle so hard and so long and think that it was so difficult and complicated. We will laugh for days in delight and at ourselves. We will then know the unknowable and know that there is nothing to know.

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by Royce
I really don't what to steal any of wuli's thunder, but acceptance is giving up. It is giving up trying, wrestling and letting it happen. We can't know the secret, paradox, of existence until we accept our existence and the existence of everything else including that which we can never know.

This is exactly the kind of fundamentalist, black and white, good and evil, thinking that I have struggled to elucidate here. If I accept that gravity exists it does not mean that I stop looking for anti-gravity. Accepting that racism exists, does not mean I accept it must always exist. Nor, for that matter, does it mean I must believe Racism will some day cease to exist or we will someday find the answer to life, the universe, and everything.

In other words we must first exist to know existence. When we accept that we can not know and quit fighting it then in repose and harmony we will come to know. Not all at once but indicernable step by step we will come to know. Each step will lead us to the next and soon it will no longer concern us that we do not know and can not know. Then someday we will realize that we do know and have always known and we will laugh at how simple and wonderful and beautiful it is and at how silly we were to struggle so hard and so long and think that it was so difficult and complicated. We will laugh for days in delight and at ourselves. We will then know the unknowable and know that there is nothing to know.

If there is a God, Royce, then God would perhaps want us all to come to such a realization on our own. If there is no God, then again we must come to such a realization on our own. Paradox allows for this, but only if we are capable of acceptance.

 

[Royce]

Originally posted by wuliheron
This is exactly the kind of fundamentalist, black and white, good and evil, thinking that I have struggled to elucidate here. If I accept that gravity exists it does not mean that I stop looking for anti-gravity. Accepting that racism exists, does not mean I accept it must always exist. Nor, for that matter, does it mean I must believe Racism will some day cease to exist or we will someday find the answer to life, the universe, and everything.

Okay, wuli, you want a discussion/arguement. You got it.
I did not say to stop looking for or at anything nor is anything black and white. I said to quit fighting it, quit trying to find the unknowable and accept that you can not know the unknowable. You are, I know, playing the devil's advocate and sounding just like most westerners that acceptence is giving up and doing nothing. This stems from ignorance and misunderstanding, not yours, I know better, but westerners, like me.
Giving up is one of the hardest things that I have ever attempted to do because of the necessarily included paradox, ie. trying to give up is still trying to do something and not acceptance. I can't even write about it with my limited command of the english language, my mother tongue, because the word 'attempt' implies acting, trying, excerting my will. The paradox: How do we give up fighting, wrestling, trying without trying to do so? The answer, in your own words, ACCEPTANCE. By accecepting the futility of trying not to try.
It has nothing to do with giving up yet is giving up (I sound like the Toa myself, don't I?)
How can we find anti-gravity if we're blind to the fact that our minds are as closed as our eyes.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by Royce
I said to quit fighting it, quit trying to find the unknowable and accept that you can not know the unknowable. . . . How do we give up fighting, wrestling, trying without trying to do so? The answer, in your own words, ACCEPTANCE. By accecepting the futility of trying not to try.

I have a little different take on at least the "inner" version of acceptance/surrender.

If one accepts that reality exists independently of what we think of it, and that reality "works" a certain way, then it seems practical to learn the "way" of reality, and harmonize with that. That's because reality is the way it is, and no amount of fighting that or complaining about it will ever change it. I am not talking about relative circumstances, which can be changed, but rather that part of reality which cannot be changed (e.g., physical laws).

But acceptance is only part of the story, because first one has to understand the "way" of reality one is going to harmonize with. Some here say, the "way" is only physical, and so once one has understood physical laws, all that needs to be known about reality has been understood. Some of us say maybe there is more, and so aren't in such a hurry to settle for the physical alone.

Science has made the physical available to us like never before, so I personally think people are jumping for that too fast; afterall, at least it offers something that is real. If there is more than the physical, the question becomes: how do we find a way to directly experience that? We need that because without the confirmation of experience, all the talk about "something more" than the physical is just speculation at worst, or at best some intuitive sense no one can really get at or explain to others in a discussion such as this.

 

[Royce]

Yes, Les, I agree and I know wuli does too but I'll let him say that.
Acceptance means accepting the world that way it really is and not the why we wish to be. Reality is both external and internal. The physical reality outside of us exist whether we look at it or not or accept it or not. Thus; "When it is raining let it rain." The harmony is harmonizing the internal with the external that is reality as well as finding harmoney within. The reality is that there is no internal and external there is only one reality that is existence.

 

[BoulderHead]

Acceptance means accepting the world that way it really is and not the why we wish to be.

Hey, maybe I've found acceptance then. This doesn't mean you have feel good about the situation does it?

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by Royce
Okay, wuli, you want a discussion/arguement. You got it.
I did not say to stop looking for or at anything nor is anything black and white. I said to quit fighting it,

First you said, quote: "Acceptance is giving up," and now you say what you said was "quit fighting it", yet somehow this is not a black and white view of acceptance and the two statements do not mean the same thing.

The paradox: How do we give up fighting, wrestling, trying without trying to do so? The answer, in your own words, ACCEPTANCE. By accecepting the futility of trying not to try.
It has nothing to do with giving up yet is giving up (I sound like the Toa myself, don't I?)

No offense, but what you sound like is confused.

I do not struggle, fight, or otherwise "try" to take my next breath. Even if I hold my breath until I pass out, I will still take that next breath and resisting or fighting has nothing to do with my taking my next breath. Breathing is a natural, spontaneous, and effortless activity on my part.

Now, of course you could claim that in some sense my body is fighting for life. However, the opposite view is much simpler. A Darwinist might put it to you that animals do not breath to survive, it is just that those which actually do breath live to see another day. Likewise, the animals that evolved breathing did not do so consciously or deliberately, but quite by accident.

Expanding upon this analogy with evolution and biology rejection, strife, struggle, fighting, etc. are also behaviors that animals did not self-select and do not struggle to maintain. They are innate and the reason the animals have them is because that is what nature had available and what survived. Nature it seems is inherently accepting, nurturing, giving.

That is the paradox of existence.

 

[drag]

Greetings !

What about the observed data - the observed Universe ?!
It takes lots of effort to explore and deal with it -
life. If it would seem you're around already - what's
the point of giving up ? As a matter of fact, if that's
the way you choose to look at things - why keep living ?

However paradoxical things may be and seem some things
still just appear to us - emotions, thouhgt, experiences,
the world. So, why not just live your life and be guided
by these instead of being a vegetable ?

And btw, how about enjoying the benefit of the doubt in
the paradox ?

Live long and prosper.

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by drag
Greetings !

What about the observed data - the observed Universe ?!
It takes lots of effort to explore and deal with it -
life. If it would seem you're around already - what's
the point of giving up ? As a matter of fact, if that's
the way you choose to look at things - why keep living ?

However paradoxical things may be and seem some things
still just appear to us - emotions, thouhgt, experiences,
the world. So, why not just live your life and be guided
by these instead of being a vegetable ?

And btw, how about enjoying the benefit of the doubt in
the paradox ?

Live long and prosper.

Drag, often you do not address people by name and your writing is a bit confusing. Perhaps if you could clarify both right now it would help.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by wuliheron
Many have pointed out here that obviously we do indeed exist in some sense, and that it is difficult if not impossible to discuss nonexistence, the origin of existence, etc. Along these same lines of reasoning, rejection can be seen as being predicated on acceptance. Unless we accept something we cannot reject anything. As with nonexistence, acceptance can be a slippery subject to discuss. However, it could also be possibly the only way to understand these other slippery concepts.

"I" am in the center of the Universe. Afterall the Universe is endless, and no matter where you go, you are in "its center." Hmm ... wouldn't that be another way of saying God embraces everything?

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
"I" am in the center of the Universe. Afterall the Universe is endless, and no matter where you go, you are in "its center." Hmm ... wouldn't that be another way of saying God embraces everything?

That would be the extreme extension of the concept. The heart of the idea is simply that we exist and have innate feelings of acceptance about our existence. Both believers and non-believers then can share a great deal in the way of feelings and perspectives, with the single exception being God of course. Thus they can understand and accept each other that much more.

 

[Royce]

When I said to give up, I did not mean to quit, to lay down our arms and die. Nor did I mean to quit searching or looking. We, most of us westerners any way, have been taught since birth that life is a struggle and we must run as fast as we can just to stay where we are. "God helps those who help themselves" How many time have I heard that one? We have been taught that it is by will power and determination that we accomplish anything.
I know that acceptance is foreign to our, western, ways of thought.
To put it into words you would use, acceptance is passive and female.
Acceptance of ourselves, our lives, and our reality is not an active striving thing that we we are all used to doing. It is a passive nonstriving thing. It is acceptance. Only in that way can we achieve it. By giving up the struggle to achieve acceptance we learn to accept what is. When we accept what is, our eyes are opened and we can see what really is, free of our preconceived notions, biases or desires. When we can see what really is then we can accomplish so much more than if we perceive reality as other than what it really is, but what we have been taught or lead to believe. Science just as ourselves can not learn anything new unless it is willing to give up its old outdated theories. Far to often many so called scientist are unwilling to give up those old ideas and paradigms and accept the new.
This is what , at least in part, what I mean by giving up.

 

[Royce]

Another part of what I mean by 'giving up' is to open our minds as well as our eyes to see what really is and all of the new possibilities that are.
I can't remember right now were I heard or read this. A Catholic priest was asked what the shortest prayer was. He replied;"F**k it, which is saying let go, let God."
This too is part of giving up, of acceptance.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by Royce
Another part of what I mean by 'giving up' is to open our minds as well as our eyes to see what really is and all of the new possibilities that are.
I can't remember right now were I heard or read this. A Catholic priest was asked what the shortest prayer was. He replied;"F**k it, which is saying let go, let God."
This too is part of giving up, of acceptance.

Yes, this is one of the spiritual meanings; it is, in fact, exactly what Islam means.

I know of another and more everyday example too. The best racquetball player in our club is a joy to watch because he is so relaxed. No one hits harder and more accurately or moves faster, but if you watch him, it is hard to tell he is expending much effort. Michael Jordan moves like that too, or look at relaxed swing of Tiger Woods. Watch how a great horse rider merges with horse, and so on.

What I am suggesting is that "surrender" means relaxing into the conditions one needs to be truly successful. The real question to me is, what sorts of forces/conditions facillitate success? Physical condtions are the most obvious, but as you know I question if they are the only conditions one can learn to harmonize with and "ride" like that great equstrian.

 

[Royce]

No, I don't think that physical condition are the only ones we need to relax to. I think mental attitude is probably just as important if not more so. I watch a lot of golf on TV. The announcers are always saying that a player can't get out of his own way. He's over analysing his game. Tiger always talks about staying in the moment. They once ask Fred Couples what he does to make the ball draw or fade. He said; "Nothing I just walk up knowing the I need to draw the ball and it does.' I found that very Zen l1ke.
To become one with the horse requires as much mental as physical adjustment. As I said Harmony is both internal and external. Once true harmoney is reached the external and internal become one. There is no difference between them. This may last just as long as the ride or a life time. It may only be a few seconds during the ride or golf swing or whatever when we suddenly feel the difference and correctness of it and say "Oops, I did something right."

 

[wuliheron]

Well said Royce.

Drag hasn't gotten back to us yet, so I'll try to answer some of his questions and expand upon what you've said Royce.

Humanity is not merely subject to the paradox of existence, we Are the paradox. Just as nature creates and destroys, we create and destroy; as mysterious as the universe as a whole is, we ourselves are mysterious and the paradox has no apparent boundries. It is not merely an external or an internal phenomenon, not merely Materialistic nor Idealistic.

Accepting ourselves and the world around us is often difficult to do only because we have adopted habitual ways of abstractly catagorizing things as good and bad, right and wrong. In turn, habits and behaviors themselves are not so much the issue as our attitude towards them. As useful as such habits can be at times, at other times they are counterproductive. They remain nothing more or less than mechanistic tools which only we ourselves can animate and bring to life through the motivations of our attitudes which, in turn, help to shape new habits and atittudes.

To paraphrase R. W. Emerson, "Virtue is its own reward, to have a friend you must first be a friend." The opposite is also true and applies not only to the world around us, but more poinently to ourselves. One need not believe in a God or even that life has a specific meaning or rational way in which it can ultimately be conceptualized in order to appreciate the value of friendship. However, you do have to take that first step.

Cultivating

Cultivate harmony within yourself,
And harmony becomes real;
Cultivate harmony within your family,
And harmony becomes fertile;
Cultivate harmony within your community,
And harmony becomes abundant;
Cultivate harmony within your culture,
And harmony becomes enduring;
Cultivate harmony within the world,
And harmony becomes ubiquitous.
Live with a person to understand that person;
Live with a family to understand that family;
Live with a community
To understand that community;
Live with a culture to understand that culture;
Live with the world to understand the world.
How can I live with the world?
By accepting.

 

[drag]

Greetings !

Originally posted by wuliheron
Drag, often you do not address people by name and your writing is a bit confusing. Perhaps if you could clarify both right now it would help.

I appologize for the inconvinience.

As you may've guessed (I personally thought it was
quite clear) I adressed you and the subject of this
thread of yours.

You speak of the Way and of ecceptance. But paradox
or not we do appear to exist - think, feel, live.
Our emotions and thoughts are not entirely indpendent
(probably at least, according to science) unlike what
it seemed to me that you implied - writings on
a blanck page. Recognizing the PoE does not mean
that I shouldn't pursue what I want to pursue, feel
what I want to feel or do what I want to do. It
does not mean that I should drop into my meditation
chair and turn into a vegetable. Why live at all then ?
Why not just cut your own throat and get it over
with. I highly disagree with this Universal acceptance
approach. You can accept some things and, if you wish,
can fight for others - not because you think they're
really "right" but because that's what you want to do
and that's the view that makes you feel good.

Would you call that denial ?
Maybe it is, but that's the only guide I have -
what I want to do. For me this Way of yours is denial.

Live long and prosper.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by drag
Greetings !

I appologize for the inconvinience.

As you may've guessed (I personally thought it was
quite clear) I adressed you and the subject of this
thread of yours.

You speak of the Way and of ecceptance. But paradox
or not we do appear to exist - think, feel, live.
Our emotions and thoughts are not entirely indpendent
(probably at least, according to science) unlike what
it seemed to me that you implied - writings on
a blanck page. Recognizing the PoE does not mean
that I shouldn't pursue what I want to pursue, feel
what I want to feel or do what I want to do. It
does not mean that I should drop into my meditation
chair and turn into a vegetable. Why live at all then ?
Why not just cut your own throat and get it over
with. I highly disagree with this Universal acceptance
approach. You can accept some things and, if you wish,
can fight for others - not because you think they're
really "right" but because that's what you want to do
and that's the view that makes you feel good.

Would you call that denial ?
Maybe it is, but that's the only guide I have -
what I want to do. For me this Way of yours is denial.

Live long and prosper.

Hmmm. I am not sure about Wuli's beliefs, so I don't want to say you've misunderstood him, but I am familiar with some of the philosophy of acceptance/surrender, and what you are describing isn't it. However, if not properly understood, one might interpret acceptance in a fatalistic way (and plenty of people have misunderstood it that way), and then I'd agree with you about the weakness of such a philosophy.

This weekend I was around two families. In one the father was so tolerant, accepting of his young children, yet he continuously worked to guide them. The second family was headed by a relatively young man attempting to be a stepfather for the first time. He had the two young boys all but saluting (they did have to say "yes sir"). Now, you can imagine which set of kids were happier and healthier.

In my opinion, the deep meaning of acceptance is to understand the true nature of reality and harmonize with that. It really only applies to that because reality is the one thing you cannot fight and win. All the suffering of the world is brought about by people who don't understand how to accept this truth, just like the dad who was withholding love until the children were behaving perfectly doesn't understand reality. Children are made a certain way, and when the father understands and accepts what the children need FIRST he is more likely to be successful at any thing he wants to achieve with them.

Acceptance gets "deep" when one starts including as part of reality God or Truth. Total surrender to that aspect of reality has been an important part of the so-called "mystical" path.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
It really only applies to that because reality is the one
thing you cannot fight and win. All the suffering of the
world is brought about by people who don't understand how
to accept this truth,

I completely disagree with this over-idealistic view.

Although we apparently have certain basic tendencies
we do not think or want the same things. Most of
us indeed do what we want. The great ristrictions
upon our actions and thus wishes are forced by
social order - a delicate balance between the
intrests of people and their need to co-exist
in a stable condition. Suffering for the majority
of the world does not have its source in the few
that impose their will on the many (as has been
a long time ago in the past), but rather in the many
that impose their will upon themselves. Further more,
the huge amount of people on the planet, their
resource consumption rate and their average
life-style that is higher than the planet's ability
to support it for such a population, are continuing
to decrease the possible range of freedom one can
be allowed to possesses in a stable society, no matter
the type of order in that society. This also leads
to suffering and more of it.

Our societies try to compensate for these factors by
increasing the "superficial" and "artificial" perceptions
of freedom: by changing the types of social order, by striving
for equality - centering around the average, by focusing
on the smaller aspects and through education and
more stable and suttle social norms. But, the
instability is there, it's basic and inescapable
and as long as 2+ people co-exist it will always be
there in some amount and hence also the most
important factor for suffering will too.

Suffering... can't live with it, can't live without it.

Live long and prosper.

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
In my opinion, the deep meaning of acceptance is to understand the true nature of reality and harmonize with that. It really only applies to that because reality is the one thing you cannot fight and win. All the suffering of the world is brought about by people who don't understand how to accept this truth, just like the dad who was withholding love until the children were behaving perfectly doesn't understand reality. Children are made a certain way, and when the father understands and accepts what the children need FIRST he is more likely to be successful at any thing he wants to achieve with them.

Taoists especially prefer to use words like "harmonious" and "dischordant" rather than good or bad for just this reason. Harmony is not something you create, but rather, a naturally occurring phenomenon you allow. In order to perceive the paradox of existence as fully as possible we must be able to allow ourselves to be in harmony with it. This is the point I think Drag is missing.

We can abstractly conceive of the paradox as it existed in the past and as we might conceive it existing in the future, but to perceive it in the moment we must be in harmony with it. Abstractions have countless useses, but only because we can give them context in the present reality we experience and observe.

Drag is correct in that this does not mean we must sit on a rock and meditate in order to experience the paradox as fully as possible, however, meditation is one of countless widely acknowledged for cultivating harmony with the paradox. Tiger Woods, who is half Asian, focuses on being happy and content with life. Michael Jordon says when he is on the court it just seems like everyone else is moving in slow motion.

Of course, we can just accept our own feelings and thoughts no matter how negative. If we want to kill ourselves, we can do that. If we want to kill others, we can do that. If we wish to hate ourselves and others, we can obviously do so. If we want to fight the good fight, we can do that. The real question might be simply how do you really want to do it rather than which way is the most productive. Both ways of looking at life involve circular logic after all. That's paradox for you.

 

[drag]

Greetings !

I believe you misunderstood me wuli. Please
correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that
I too propose a way to deal, primarily, with the PoE.
I do not, the PoE is not my center at all.
My way is to remember it for all the potential
uses it contains and keep it at "the back of my head",
but not at all dwell on it or consider it on a daily
basis. I don't care about that deep stuff that much.
I do enjoy plunging into the depths of thought and
finding solutions and I can have some vague direct
uses for the conclusions, but overall - I don't care
about it that much. I care more for much simpler and
seemingly tangible stuff that ussualy have a much
more direct impact upon me.

Paradox is not my life though my life may be a paradox.
Me (copyrights reserved)

Live long and prosper.

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by drag

Paradox is not my life though my life may be a paradox.
Me (copyrights reserved)

Live long and prosper. [/B]

To say that paradox is not your life is a statement of belief about paradox which, of course, presents a paradox in its own rite.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by wuliheron
To say that paradox is not your life is a statement
of belief about paradox which, of course, presents a
paradox in its own right.

That's the great thing about these smart-ass
quotes - they can mean anything...

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by drag
That's the great thing about these smart-ass
quotes - they can mean anything...

By definition, a smart-ass quote cannot mean just anything. It is a clear expression of negativity.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by wuliheron
By definition, a smart-ass quote cannot mean just anything.

"May the Universe's smart-ass quotes guide your
path and show you the meaning..."

 

[Adam]

Stuff about acceptance and rejection...

Acceptance and rejection in themselves are nothing. They matter only when applied to other things. Like "arriving" is meaningless unless we add something to it, such as "arriving home", or "arriving at a conclusion", et cetera. Similarly, acceptance and rejection only matter when applied to something, for example acceptance of having a disease, rejection of someone's recommendation, acceptance of a fear, rejection of that fear's control over us, and so on.

The things we accept or reject help to define us, in part. I reject certain behaviours. If I see a guy punching a girl, I'll make a decision of acceptance or rejection, and probably hit the dude. It's not an emotional reaction. It's based on the idea that it is weakness, cowardice, for someone to take some form of gratification in causing harm to someone weaker than themselves. But I'm wandering off into other topics...

There are things we accept and things we reject. Some things we accept because we have no other choice but death - eating, drinking, breathing, and so on. Apart from those necessities of life, any other things we accept are purely a matter of choice. I accept the limits placed on me by laws and such because I wish to enjoy the benefits of this society. If I didn't want those benefits, I'd reject those limits and move to some place without such restrictions.

 

[Royce]

One of the most important aspects of Tao and Zen, of acceptance, is that we all are a part of nature and nature is a part of us. Westerners, myself included, have an attitude that we are separate from nature and that we do things to nature and nature does things to us. This is not so. We are nature. This is part of the acceptance we are talking about. We say that acceptance is passive and feminine, but only in comparison to our other half, active and masculine. Acceptance in no way means quiting, laying down and dying or setting motionless for hours contemplating our navels. I meditate many time during any given day, while setting on the john, driving to work, looking at nothing seeing everything, at my desk for a few moments to clear my mind, during commercials on TV, in bed before I go to sleep. This is more the Tao way than Zen. We seem to have the impression that meditation is setting for hours and doing nothing as some Zen monks do. We are not Zen monks in a Buddhist temple. We are living, working, loving people with families. We don't quit. We accept what is and live our lives within the nature that is and that we are. When it rains we let it rain and change our ways accordingly.
We grab an umbrella not a sword to go beat the weather into submission to make it stop raining. Nor are we angry or disappointed that it is raining. It is as simple as that. We let it rain and get on with our lifes. The only difference is that we try to do that with every facet of our lifes and find harmony within and without ourselves and become one with nature. It is after all what we are in reality.

 

[Royce]

One more thing that I want to say right now is that it has been said that when we pray we are talking to God. When we meditate God talks to us. I know that to be true for me at least. Meditation is nothing more that quieting our minds, shutting down the noise and constant often meaningless chatter going on in our heads and listening for a change. We listen quietly and let whatever happens happen even if it is only for a few minutes or seconds.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by drag
I completely disagree with this over-idealistic view.

Although we apparently have certain basic tendencies
we do not think or want the same things. Most of
us indeed do what we want. The great ristrictions
upon our actions and thus wishes are forced by
social order - a delicate balance between the
intrests of people and their need to co-exist
in a stable condition. Suffering for the majority
of the world does not have its source in the few
that impose their will on the many (as has been
a long time ago in the past), but rather in the many
that impose their will upon themselves. Further more,
the huge amount of people on the planet, their
resource consumption rate and their average
life-style that is higher than the planet's ability
to support it for such a population, are continuing
to decrease the possible range of freedom one can
be allowed to possesses in a stable society, no matter
the type of order in that society. This also leads
to suffering and more of it.

Our societies try to compensate for these factors by
increasing the "superficial" and "artificial" perceptions
of freedom: by changing the types of social order, by striving
for equality - centering around the average, by focusing
on the smaller aspects and through education and
more stable and suttle social norms. But, the
instability is there, it's basic and inescapable
and as long as 2+ people co-exist it will always be
there in some amount and hence also the most
important factor for suffering will too.

Suffering... can't live with it, can't live without it.

I read what you said several times, and I still can't quite figure out why you felt it was an exception to my statement that "It [acceptance] really only applies to [reality] because reality is the one thing you cannot fight and win. All the suffering of the world is brought about by people who don't understand how to accept this truth."

I can't see how it is idealistic to say reality works in certain ways which, if we don't accept, it will cause suffering. For example, whether someone imposes their will on others, or their own will on themselves, if that will is contrary to human nature, they will suffer. If we go against nature by using up the planet's resources and polluting the air so badly we can't breathe, that will cause suffering. All I was saying was that an important aspect of "reality" is the underlying rules of nature which have taken billions of years to establish. We can't just do anything we want -- there has to be a certain acquiesense to this nature when we do whatever it is we want to do or reality will come crashing down on our obtuse heads.

Now all that is about outer acceptance, but then I added another element, which Royce also talked about, and that is the sort of "surrender" one does in inner pursuits. Those of us who practice that learn about an inner realm that has a nature too, and it is very different from the outer realm. It is so inalterable one has to surrender (inwardly) to it to know it. In my experience, there's no if's, and's or but's -- it's either surrender or you don't get to touch it. In other words, you can be part of it, but you can never make it part of you.

Why do people attempt that? For me, at least, it is for a very simple reason, and that is: because it feels good. When I feel good from within, I want to do and be good, so I think it has practical value too.

Thus you have the parameters I follow for acceptance. It has nothing to do with accepting evil or stupidity, which I might indeed fight. It's just about recognizing and working in harmony with the underlying nature of things.

 

[BoulderHead]

Royce,

We grab an umbrella not a sword to go beat the weather into submission to make it stop raining. Nor are we angry or disappointed that it is raining. It is as simple as that. We let it rain and get on with our lifes. The only difference is that we try to do that with every facet of our lifes and find harmony within and without ourselves and become one with nature. It is after all what we are in reality.

What if a hurricane accompanies that rain and destroys your home, killing all of your family members in the process?
No anger or dissappointment?

 

[BoulderHead]

LW Sleeth,

I know of another and more everyday example too. The best racquetball player in our club is a joy to watch because he is so relaxed. No one hits harder and more accurately or moves faster, but if you watch him, it is hard to tell he is expending much effort. Michael Jordan moves like that too, or look at relaxed swing of Tiger Woods. Watch how a great horse rider merges with horse, and so on.

I relate this more to a state of concentration than acceptance. By keeping other parts of your body, such as your face, relaxed, a runner can focus concentration more on his/her legs, where it counts...

 

[BoulderHead]

Wu Li,

By definition, a smart-ass quote cannot mean just anything. It is a clear expression of negativity.

What happens to 'acceptance' when negativity is expressed?

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Royce,
What if a hurricane accompanies that rain and destroys your home, killing all of your family members in the process?
No anger or dissappointment?

Yeah, that would be a challenge. But, such tragedies happen to people all the time. I've had my share. Most people, after some time period, get over it and move on. The questions is how to handle that recovery period. Will it be extended by fighting and resisting what's already too late to stop? Or will it be shortened by working to accept what has happened so one can get on with living.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
LW Sleeth,
I relate this more to a state of concentration than acceptance. By keeping other parts of your body, such as your face, relaxed, a runner can focus concentration more on his/her legs, where it counts...

True, the atheletic examples aren't very deep, but I still believe it reflects acceptance in that one accepts one's physical nature so completely one relaxes in it. I have been in sports my whole life, and I believe I am a better athelete now than when I was younger (even if a lot slower) because I relax and flow with a sport more instead of totally trying to impose my will on a situation.

 

[Royce]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
Yeah, that would be a challenge. But, such tragedies happen to people all the time. I've had my share. Most people, after some time period, get over it and move on. The questions is how to handle that recovery period. Will it be extended by fighting and resisting what's already too late to stop? Or will it be shortened by working to accept what has happened so one can get on with living.

One exception, Les. We don't get over it. It is a part of us for ever. A tragedy such as that changes us forever just as every other expierence changes us but this more drastically. We learn to live with if and eventually to accept it as our new reality and then we go on living our life. Just as acceptance doesn't mean quiting it doesn't mean that we are free of emotions, anger, pain or anguish.
Acceptance helps us get over it and pick ourselves up and go on without destroying ourselves. Rather than quiting and cutting our throats it gives us the strength and reason to go on.

 

[BoulderHead]

Just as acceptance doesn't mean quiting it doesn't mean that we are free of emotions, anger, pain or anguish.

So how, really, is eastern acceptance much different from a westerner who knows that he needs to “Just Deal With it!”?

I think many people in the west may believe that the minds of easterners are somehow different from their own, as if these people have their act together in a way denied to the western-minded folk…

I look at Wu Li, LW, and Royce, all trying to put their fingers on something where they seem to share a commonality, yet they too have disagreements on the matter. Next, I look to ‘the East’ and see that these people all murder and enslave each other too. There are a very few who have burned themselves alive in protest while another stands lighting his cigarette, watching the spectacle…

No, I simply do not accept (haha) that what is practiced ‘over there’ really works much better than a western liberal’s idea of “Why can’t we all just get along together”. We are all different, even though we may attempt to follow a similar path, this is what I see. In the final analysis I believe it is up to each of us alone to decide what will or will not work to help us cope with this life.

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
No, I simply do not accept (haha) that what is practiced ‘over there’ really works much better than a western liberal’s idea of “Why can’t we all just get along together”. We are all different, even though we may attempt to follow a similar path, this is what I see. In the final analysis I believe it is up to each of us alone to decide what will or will not work to help us cope with this life. [/B]

Life is an evolution, not simply something to be coped with. It is the progressive movement we see, not just the chaotic ebb and flow, that we pay attention to. Two thousand years ago the Romans excitedly watched gladiators fight to the death, lions eat Christians, etc. while simultaneously helping to create the foundations of science. The Chinese were sacraficing virgins to the Gods of the lakes, rivers, and streams while simultaneously inventing gunpowder, eyeglasses, and countless other useful things.

No doubt we all have a long way to go, but that does not mean we can't see the writing on the wall. Fortunately, you don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows. Just as western thought has proven uniquely valuable in the physical sciences and other areas, Asian thought is now proving uniquely valuable in psychology among other things.

As for it merely being up to the individual to decide what is best for themselves, there is a certain truth to that but a limited one. Today it is hollywood and the governments among others that decide how people think and what they are aware of. Fortunately, the internet is still somewhat uncensored and wonderful new arena for comparing ideas.

 

[Royce]

BH, Its just words that are differrent. Acceptance is one way of just dealing with it. It is a way, a method of helping us deal with it and everything else. We all altimately have to find our own way.
We are just pointing out an alternate route to the western mind that you and others may not be familiar with. It's not instant heaven nor instant nervana. It is simply a way. I have found it much more rewarding and fulfilling that sitting in a chuch listening to someone who at best I don't agree with and at worst is lying to me and trying to control my mind, life and wallet.
"Try it. You'll like it." "It can't hurt." Just to throw in a few cookie cutter quotes.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
So how, really, is eastern acceptance much different from a westerner who knows that he needs to “Just Deal With it!”? . . .
I look at Wu Li, LW, and Royce, all trying to put their fingers on something where they seem to share a commonality, yet they too have disagreements on the matter. Next, I look to ‘the East’ and see that these people all murder and enslave each other too. There are a very few who have burned themselves alive in protest while another stands lighting his cigarette, watching the spectacle… No, I simply do not accept (haha) that what is practiced ‘over there’ really works much better than a western liberal’s idea . . .

I think you are right to say the West has its own version of acceptance, and that some Westerners do romanticize the "East." However, I am not sure Wuli, Royce and myself are disagreeing so much as we are speaking of our personal experiences with and study of the practice.

One way I definitely disagree with you is when you suggest there is nothing to appreciate about the Eastern take on acceptance. I don't think what the masses do (anywhere) is relevant because it is the masters of a practice that have realized it most. It would be like judging the scientific achievements of the West by the general population's understanding of science.

In the East, there were individuals who made a point of focusing on the principles of acceptance, harmony, naturalness and surrender. I personally have learned a great deal from studing such individuals. Chinese philosophy in particular has resonated with me from the first time I read it, and I still read it nearly everyday in the I Ching. But, don't judge the realization of the Chinese masters by how well I practice.

So I don't see anything wrong with acknowledging some culture's specialization in a area of consciousness development. It takes nothing away from us, and may even help.

 

[Royce]

Well said, Les. Once again you leave me with nothing to say or add.

 

[BoulderHead]

Wu Li,
Good points about Hollywood, Governments, and the Internet !

LW,
It’s not that I’m trying to suggest there is nothing to appreciate about the Eastern take on acceptance, in fact I have a lot of respect for certain Eastern viewpoints/philosophy. I don’t’ mind acknowledging some culture’s specialization in an area of consciousness development, either. More along the lines of what I’m trying to say is that plenty of Easterners themselves don’t seem to buy into it. At least, not enough to where I can see an overall increase of those people getting along with each other to a substantially higher degree than people do in the West. This ‘way of acceptance’, if I may call it as such, may be wonderful, but I don’t see it as being ‘better’ than some way in which a Westerner might cope with life. How do you even measure such a thing in the first place? That is why I turned to looking at their society in general…to see what impact it has had, and I think it hasn’t made enough positive change in their societies to warrant the ‘build up’ that it has been given here in the West. I think a large part of the fascination is that it is different, and therefore it has appeal. As far as coping with life, you could be a very pious Christian religionist and find a path worth following too.

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by BoulderHead

This ‘way of acceptance’, if I may call it as such, may be wonderful, but I don’t see it as being ‘better’ than some way in which a Westerner might cope with life. How do you even measure such a thing in the first place?

Actually, the Philosophical Taoism that is the root of most Asian thought is rigorously practiced by a vanishingly small minority of Asians, just as many of the roots of western thought are seriously practiced by small minorities. As always happens, the masses tend to elaborate on such things and adapt them to the realities of everyday life rather than vice versa. How many scientists, for example, practice objectivity in the bedroom...on second thought... don't answer that!

Of particular interest to many is how Asian thought is currently being adapted to western thought and vice versa. In Asia, the emphasis is on practice, on meditation and lifestyle. Western Taoists are often considered by Asians to be too intellectual on the subject. Buddhist thought in particular has proven remarkably adaptable to the sciences, and it may well be that what Asian thought needs for its roots to become more popular and rigorously practiced is a shot of western science.

Acceptance can and is currently being measured in countless ways. One of the more promising avenues is actually called Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, which is an out growth of work done by Radical Behaviorists. By combining traditional western Contextualism with Buddhism and Behaviorism with Linguistics, the first science connecting the cognitive and behavioral sciences has been created. This means that statistically at least, scientists can now measure acceptance not only according to what the individual declares their acceptance to be, but according to behavioral analysis as well and the two can be directly correlated.

Acceptance can be defined as harmonious, receptive, open minded, and other vague qualitities, but it can also be defined by specifics as well. A person who overcomes their grief to accept the death of a loved one for example. Notably, such clear correlations between the behavioral and cognitive also present scientists with the first opportunity to actually study the objectivity of scientists...well...objectively!

 

[BoulderHead]

So East and West then are borrowing from one another, with a tendency to combine, hopefully to something even more fruitful then either one has been by itself. If it leads to greater unity of 'the masses' then I think it could be a good thing.

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
So East and West then are borrowing from one another, with a tendency to combine, hopefully to something even more fruitful then either one has been by itself. If it leads to greater unity of 'the masses' then I think it could be a good thing.

Not just greater unity of masses, but imo it is leading to the next scientific revolution. An organic science rather than the current mechanistic one tracing back to Newton and Galileo.

 

[Royce]

One thing i would like to point out. Jews have been meditating for millinia as have Christians. Meditation is not exclusively asian.
The methods and words are different but many of the results and findings are identical or nearly so whether East or West.

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by Royce
One thing i would like to point out. Jews have been meditating for millinia as have Christians. Meditation is not exclusively asian.
The methods and words are different but many of the results and findings are identical or nearly so whether East or West.

Yes, the practice dates back to Shamanistic ones like rites of passage. Eastern and western religions and philosophies share a great deal more in common the further back you go. Often its assumed we have nothing to learn from the most primitive of people, that we have progressed beyond the need for such practices. The truth is we have more often either simply traded them for other practices or modified them.

 

[Royce]

So true, wuli.
It is not that we should go back to simpler times but that to oftem we have thrown the baby out with the bath water in our headlong rush of advangement. We do need to go back and pick throught the dirt and ashes and see what other marvels we may have left behind and that have been lost to us for so long.